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Old June 1 2013, 03:51 AM   #16
Charles Phipps
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

I also heard a rumor Shatner (or somebody) wanted Kirk and Saavik together. She was an important and likable Star Trek character. I'm sorry she fell off the face of the Earth (though glad her actress did well afterward).
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Old June 1 2013, 04:03 AM   #17
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Saavik didn't spend much time on the face of the Earth, though, did she? In the movies, the only time we saw her on Earth was in the Academy sequence at the beginning. Otherwise we only saw her aboard ships, on Genesis, and on Vulcan.
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Old June 1 2013, 04:19 AM   #18
Charles Phipps
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Saavik didn't spend much time on the face of the Earth, though, did she? In the movies, the only time we saw her on Earth was in the Academy sequence at the beginning. Otherwise we only saw her aboard ships, on Genesis, and on Vulcan.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:20 PM   #19
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Saavik didn't spend much time on the face of the Earth, though, did she? In the movies, the only time we saw her on Earth was in the Academy sequence at the beginning. Otherwise we only saw her aboard ships, on Genesis, and on Vulcan.
That settles it. He's a Vulcan.

Maybe Christopher is Spock and Saavik's offspring?
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Old June 1 2013, 08:27 PM   #20
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

I just assumed he was a Rhaandite.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:28 PM   #21
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I also heard a rumor Shatner (or somebody) wanted Kirk and Saavik together.
When I interviewed Paul Winfield, who was making a movie Down Under after filming ST II, but before its theatrical release, we asked him about the rapport we could expect between Saavik and various regular characters and he indicated that the film would show a hint of romantic attraction between Saavik and Kirk, then elaborated that it was inverse to how the actors felt about each other.

My friends and I were puzzled and intrigued, especially when the film came out and there wasn't much evidence of an onscreen attraction. (And what did that mean for Winfield's comment about the actors? Especially when a set of licensed playing cards came out, with set pics of Saavik and David hugging.) When we finally got to see an off-air taping of the ABC TV broadcast of ST II, sent by a US-based penpal, the new version of the Kirk/Saavik elevator scene was much appreciated!

It was also interesting that Saavik ended up being recast for ST III (and essentially reconceived as a full Vulcan by Director Nimoy). Paramount offered Kirstie Alley less money than she made on ST II, her agent counter-offered, expecting a haggling match, as per usual - and Paramount never responded. Contractually, the studio had made the offer and was now free to recast.

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
I remember reading about that rumour in some book about Star Trek 4. I also seem to recall that Peter David did something with the rumour in #76 "Captain's Daughter", but it's been over ten years since I read the book.
Not quite. Peter David made a suggestion that Janice Rand had left the Enterprise pregnant, and had had a daughter, Annie, who died at age two. Readers were left to consider if the child was Kirk's, who had since been "killed off" in "Generations".

And that Saavik did conceive and it was the reason why she didn't time travel with Kirk and crew (plus from a budget point of view, the film makers probably were trying to save money and come up with an excuse as to why Saavik was separated from Kirk and crew, even though she should've been sent off for debriefing before the movie began, and Kirk and crew arrested).
"Your condition" was dropped into the (cut) dialogue as a little plot hook that could have been later picked up if the writers decided they needed it.

The main reason for removing Saavik from the main action of ST IV, according to Nimoy and Bennett, was that hiding one Vulcan's ears and eyebrows was tricky yet humorous. A second Vulcan in 20th century San Francisco was unnecessary.

When online Newsgroup rumours were running thick and fast during the making of ST VI, and it was revealed that Kim Cattrall had steadfastly refused to play a third incarnation of Saavik, there was supposedly a brief consideration that the new Vulcan character, Valeris (or Eris, or Val'eris), might have been the child of Saavik and Spock, who had hyperaged to adulthood due to the same Genesis effect that had hyperaged Spock in ST III. (I've never seen this rumour reported elsewhere, but I well remember it from the newsgroup printouts of the day. Whether it was fan speculation or an actual leaked conversation from the production, who knows.)

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
In general I don't like the idea of them ever being a couple, because they always seemed more of a father-daughter relationship to me, so anything more than that comes off as creepy.
The "Vulcan's Noun" books handled the issue very well. Spock and Saavik had both lived career-oriented, partnerless lives for decades and, realizing that as long-lived Vulcans they probably had decades of the same ahead of them. They had not been in a mentor/student relationship in a loooong time. They came together as a couple for companionship, and out of mutual respect. Quite logically.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; June 1 2013 at 11:55 PM. Reason: more
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Old June 2 2013, 02:20 AM   #22
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

When online Newsgroup rumours were running thick and fast during the making of ST VI, and it was revealed that Kim Cattrall had steadfastly refused to play a third incarnation of Saavik, there was supposedly a brief consideration that the new Vulcan character, Valeris (or Eris, or Val'eris), might have been the child of Saavik and Spock, who had hyperaged to adulthood due to the same Genesis effect that had hyperaged Spock in ST III. (I've never seen this rumour reported elsewhere, but I well remember it from the newsgroup printouts of the day. Whether it was fan speculation or an actual leaked conversation from the production, who knows.)
Wow, that's interesting. I never heard that one.

I remember reading online, prior to the movie, that Valeris was originally going to be Saavik but when Robin Curtis was unavailable and they cast yet another different actress, they decided to make it a similar but new Vulcan character in place of Saavik.

Which made Valeris's betrayal shocking to me, as I was essentially imagining her as a proxy Saavik when it finally came out.

Later on I read that early drafts of the script had that character as Saavik but they changed it to Valeris because Roddenberry objected to making Saavik a traitor. (I forget where I read that. It seems like it might have been Shatner's movie memories book, but I might be wrong.)

If that was the reason, then of course they couldn't have said in advance of the movie that was the reason for changing Saavik to Valeris (because it would have given away the plot twist). Imagine how shocking it would have been if they had went for it and made Saavik the villain!
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Old June 2 2013, 10:29 AM   #23
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

DorkBoy [TM] wrote: View Post
when Robin Curtis was unavailable
Actually, Nick Meyer pursued Kirstie Alley for ST VI. He didn't care for Robin Curtis's portrayal in ST III and ST IV and never approached her agent, which saddened Robin Curtis when she eventiually learned that her character had been in the ST VI script.

Which made Valeris's betrayal shocking to me, as I was essentially imagining her as a proxy Saavik when it finally came out.
"Cinefantastique" had nasty, spoilery captions. Damn them! I'd chosen not to read the "making of" article, but only the captions - which must have been added at the last minute, after the journalists had viewed the movie.

Later on I read that early drafts of the script had that character as Saavik but they changed it to Valeris because Roddenberry objected to making Saavik a traitor.
No way was Nick Meyer going to listen to Roddenberry's suggestion, and he's reiterated that before. He only changed the character because Kim Cattrall didn't want to be the third actress in the role, and she'd been his personal first choice for Saavik in ST II.

Imagine how shocking it would have been if they had went for it and made Saavik the villain!
Totally agree. I'd have hated it, but would have loved the bravery/surprise of the choice.

I knew Valeris was the traitor. It felt telegraphed all the way through the movie - but I'm not good at whodunnits so, if I hadn't been spoiled by "Cinefantastique", I would have been caught on the hop!
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Old June 2 2013, 10:45 AM   #24
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

No way was Nick Meyer going to listen to Roddenberry's suggestion, and he's reiterated that before. He only changed the character because Kim Cattrall didn't want to be the third actress in the role, and she'd been his personal first choice for Saavik in ST II.
Roddenbery and I disagree about many things (his franchise or no) but he was correct in this. Saavik being a racist warmonger would be a betrayal of her character.
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Old June 2 2013, 11:20 AM   #25
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Saavik being a racist warmonger would be a betrayal of her character.
Vulcans need only see logic in a situation. Remember the DS9 episode, "Field of Fire", in which a Vulcan sniper was killing people?

The emotional shock of a nasty experience during the Dominion War drove a Vulcan Starfleet officer to target any fellow officer showing happiness. While being questioned, Chu'lak attempted to justify his actions by saying "Because logic demanded it."
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Old June 2 2013, 02:30 PM   #26
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Later on I read that early drafts of the script had that character as Saavik but they changed it to Valeris because Roddenberry objected to making Saavik a traitor.
No way was Nick Meyer going to listen to Roddenberry's suggestion, and he's reiterated that before. He only changed the character because Kim Cattrall didn't want to be the third actress in the role, and she'd been his personal first choice for Saavik in ST II.
Interesting. This is the first I've heard of that. Did you read that from an interview with Meyer or something? (Probably denying the widely held rumor / belief that Roddenberry was responsible for the change.)

It at least explains why this one objection of Roddenberry's would have been listened to - he gave pages of notes on each movie that were ignored, didn't he?

I don't know where that rumor came from but I know I've read / heard it several places. Knowing Roddenberry, he might've taken credit for the change at some point and been the source of it.

Imagine how shocking it would have been if they had went for it and made Saavik the villain!
Totally agree. I'd have hated it, but would have loved the bravery/surprise of the choice.
That's exactly how I would have described it too.
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Old June 2 2013, 02:56 PM   #27
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

DorkBoy [TM] wrote: View Post
This is the first I've heard of that. Did you read that from an interview with Meyer or something? (Probably denying the widely held rumor / belief that Roddenberry was responsible for the change.)
Numerous print interviews ("Starlog", etc). Roddenberry had suggested not using Saavik because the character was "beloved by fans" and Meyer countered that Roddenberry hadn't wanted Saavik - a Meyer addition - in ST II in the first place.

I believe it may also be on the director's commentary on the DVD.

There was a quite recent online interview where Meyer regrets treating the ailing Roddenberry so poorly during the making of ST VI.

It at least explains why this one objection of Roddenberry's would have been listened to - he gave pages of notes on each movie that were ignored, didn't he?
Yes, but had Kim Cattrall agreed to play Saavik, the character name change wouldn't have happened. Contractually, as Creative Consultant, GR had to be given the opportunity to write memos on every draft script - and he did - but no one had to listen to him.

Knowing Roddenberry, he might've taken credit for the change at some point which is where that rumor came from in the first place.
He was incredibly ill at the time. Wheelchair bound from several strokes. He died not long after viewing the ST VI work print. Shatner's book has him racing back to his home office and making angry phone calls, but in reality he went straight to hospital and never returned. Ernie Over, Gene's carer, told me his only comment on ST VI was something like: "The fans will probably love it."
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Old June 2 2013, 06:43 PM   #28
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Re: Do Spock & Saavik have any children?

Yes, but had Kim Cattrall agreed to play Saavik, the character name change wouldn't have happened. Contralually, as Creative Consultant, GR had to be given the opportunity to write memos on every draft script - and he did - but no one had to listen to him.
Yeah. That's kind of what I was saying too - Gene objected to a lot of things during the TOS movie era, all of which were ignored. It makes a lot of sense that there had to be more to the story than Gene's objection. Your story about the actress makes a lot of sense.
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