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Old May 31 2013, 05:09 AM   #31
Zameaze
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Nielson ratings are calculated from a sampling of viewers and is the only indicator they have which suggests what their actual viewing numbers are... Are you claiming the graph or the actual numbers I supplied/found are fraudulent?
Nope. I'm saying it is a red herring. Kate Mulgrew is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings. Rick Berman is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings, and that they stayed at a higher level than they would have been at without her.

The fact that the ratings went down until the show was cancelled would seem to be self evident (ratings rarely go up until the show is cancelled) and has nothing to do Ryan's character: It's clear that she brought additional fans to the show, many of whom remained to the end. Without them Voyger's run would have ended sooner.

When the executive producer and the star of Voyager give Jeri Ryan credit for helping the show, I have to believe that you are just trying to stir the pot by saying that she didn't.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:32 AM   #32
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Substitute NuPike's demotion speech to NuKirk in STID with Janeway and you have your problem. Pike regarding Kirk: "You think you're infallible. You think you can't make a mistake. It's a pattern with you. The rules are for other people. And what's worse is you're using blind luck to justify your playing god".

While I like the character of Janeway. She suffered from overt favoritism from the writers and production crew. I suspect it was a way of overcompensating to make the first female Star Trek captain not seem weak, foolish and or incompetent. By "Endgame" Janeway is arrogant and with a hyperinflated ego. VOY's premise was lost in space trying to make it home. We knew from episode 1 they would make it home eventually.


While Janeway certainly didn't have it easy. She certainly wasn't breaking the rules or living on the edge like Capt Ransom from Equinox. I really like the season 5 arc that began with "Night". Janeway secluded in her quarters lamenting her decision to strand 150 people in the DQ. With what we know about how easily and for random reasons starships blow up in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. You add in a multitude of unknown alien threats, and known threats Borg and Species 8472, who wouldn't regret and second guess their decision?

However Janeway is virtually faultless and infallible. She makes all the right decisions and escapes always despite insurmountable odds.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:36 AM   #33
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Methinks the woman doth protest too much.

You are afraid and resent how much you're drawn to that monkey.
hahahaha! made me think of this

http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/w...genesis254.jpg
Let me crush this vile rumor now:

No.
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Old May 31 2013, 06:25 AM   #34
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Nielson ratings are calculated from a sampling of viewers and is the only indicator they have which suggests what their actual viewing numbers are... Are you claiming the graph or the actual numbers I supplied/found are fraudulent?
Nope. I'm saying it is a red herring. Kate Mulgrew is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings. Rick Berman is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings, and that they stayed at a higher level than they would have been at without her.

The fact that the ratings went down until the show was cancelled would seem to be self evident (ratings rarely go up until the show is cancelled) and has nothing to do Ryan's character: It's clear that she brought additional fans to the show, many of whom remained to the end. Without them Voyger's run would have ended sooner.

When the executive producer and the star of Voyager give Jeri Ryan credit for helping the show, I have to believe that you are just trying to stir the pot by saying that she didn't.
It's not clear that she brought new fans to the show.

It is clear that the existing fans appreciated her, although there were less and less existing fans each week/month/year.

It's called "spin"

If the producers start saying "we made a terrible decision, a series of terrible decisions, because we're awful at our job" loud enough and often enough, it's not actors who are going to get fired the next time someone starts trimming the fat.

Jeri was fantastic, Seven of Nine is exactly what I wanted, but lets be clear about this, I was not the demographic they were losing or needing to lasso and force to sit in front of their idiot boxes.

The producers did what they did very well, but no one was interested, and they didn't know how to jigger their brand into something saleable without alienating their dwindling audience which they were most probably not allowed to do, and is why they did nothing despite the forewarned doom.

The highest aggregated rated Shows during Voyagers run were Seinfeld and ER years 1 - 5, Who wants to be a million year 6 and Survivor for Year seven, all scoring in the low 20s to the high teens.

None of these series used a half naked pretty girl to get were they got.

Long ago when America was a different country, when this happened, I love Lucy scored a 67.

I didn't know Lucille was hot until I saw her movies, because the acting and her character on the telly was more important than her body.
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Old May 31 2013, 06:53 AM   #35
Zameaze
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Nielson ratings are calculated from a sampling of viewers and is the only indicator they have which suggests what their actual viewing numbers are... Are you claiming the graph or the actual numbers I supplied/found are fraudulent?
Nope. I'm saying it is a red herring. Kate Mulgrew is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings. Rick Berman is claiming that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings, and that they stayed at a higher level than they would have been at without her.

The fact that the ratings went down until the show was cancelled would seem to be self evident (ratings rarely go up until the show is cancelled) and has nothing to do Ryan's character: It's clear that she brought additional fans to the show, many of whom remained to the end. Without them Voyger's run would have ended sooner.

When the executive producer and the star of Voyager give Jeri Ryan credit for helping the show, I have to believe that you are just trying to stir the pot by saying that she didn't.
It's not clear that she brought new fans to the show....
It is blindingly clear! And now I know you're just yanking my chain, so I shall bow out of this confabulation.
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Old May 31 2013, 07:37 AM   #36
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

This is me being very reasonable.

Just the facts.

I assure you that when I am being obstinate, shit gets real.

You're refuting math with interpretation of math by individuals who would lie or repeat lies they've been told.

Jeri's %60 bump, lasted 1 episode, and only raised Voyager's ratings to a little over half what they were getting in season one.

You could just as easily claim that it was Wang being "selected" as one of the worlds sexiest people is what saved the show... Even if it didn't, which it didn't, but the claim that his spunkiness saved the show from premature cancellation is equally as spurious as that Jeri did or the Delta Flier did.

Remember when the Network said Fuck you to the Duke's of Hazzard, you don't deserve a raise! The real star is the car, so why don't you just fuckity fuckity fuck off, and we'll find us another couple of hillbilles to drive our star around."

The year of Coy and Vance did not bode well for the network.

How much danger was Voyager of being cut from the line-up by year 5, 6 or 7?
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Old May 31 2013, 07:26 PM   #37
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

You're refuting math with interpretation of math by individuals who would lie or repeat lies they've been told.
Our memories of what a sensation Jeri Ryan was as Seven at that time should really suffice, but in addition, we have the cast of Voyager, including Kate Mulgrew; and innumerable news agencies, including The New Your Times, who you assume can't read the Nielson ratings and interpret them properly--you are the only one with the specialized knowledge to do this. Or is it that our memories, Kate Mulgrew, and the news agencies are lying to us (as you hint above) for some nefarious reason that only you and Mel Gibson know about?
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Old May 31 2013, 08:16 PM   #38
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You want to talk about Archer?

One of his first first contacts, he transmits coordinates to Earth to some bug eyed baddies before he's completely finished saying hello to prove that they are friendly and doe eyed with no aggressive intentions, which is when the bug eyes started shooting at him, with probably plans to sell most of his crew into slavery who they didn't think would blend well into Friday night's casserole.

"Sigh"

Oh! OH! OH!

What about Harriman?

First day on the job and he kills Kirk.
Um, which episode was that?
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Old May 31 2013, 08:49 PM   #39
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

This is when John hailed the bastards that wanted to kill them for no reason in silent enemy.

T'POL: I don't recognise the configuration.
ARCHER: Good. Hail them. This is the Starship Enterprise. What can we do for you? My name is Jonathan Archer. We're on a mission of exploration from the planet Earth. Hoshi?
HOSHI: The channel's open, sir.
ARCHER: Do you need assistance? If you don't want to talk, that's fine but, you dropped in on us. (the mystery ship turns about and goes to warp) Was it something I said? Did you get anything on sensors?
REED: No.
ARCHER: No what?
REED: No biosigns, no propulsion or weapon signatures, no readings at all.
this is a couple episodes earlier in flight or flight when Hoshi was taught what to put in Johns letter head and postscript.

REED: If they have weapons, they're not charged.
ARCHER: Any comm. activity?
HOSHI: No, sir.
ARCHER: Run this through the translation matrix. My name is Jonathan Archer. I'm Captain of the Starship Enterprise. We're on a mission of peaceful exploration. Oh, we come from the planet Earth. We're sending you a pulsar grid that should help you locate our star system. Did you rotate the frequencies?
HOSHI: I'll try it again. No response, sir.
TUCKER: Captain, mind if I push in on the venting ports around that hatch?
ARCHER: Go ahead. (zooms the viewscreen image)
TRAVIS: Are those venting ports or hull breaches?
It all kinda mushes together into one blob after a while.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; June 1 2013 at 01:07 AM.
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Old May 31 2013, 09:20 PM   #40
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post

Not for Janeway it wasn't: Janeway always looked like a sack of laundry when standing next to Seven! If Janeway were to come out on top in the last episode, she would have had to blind Chakotay.
At least Janeway wasn't the one wearing a girdle. In fact she wouldn't wear the dreaded "Star Trek Bra" but that is another story.
But that's obvious--like I said, Janeway looked like a sack of potatoes next to Seven. No matter what she wore she wasn't going to be any competition for Seven, but couldn't she have at least tried? For the series? When Braga told Kate Mulgrew she needed to wear a push-up bra, maybe she should have listened.
Really? You've got to be kidding me. You're saying Janeway was awful because she didn't look sexy enough? Come on! This is stupid. What you said goes against everything Star Trek has to say about what it wants the future of our world to be. They didn't have a female captain just to satisfy you. Goodness. The whole point was to make her seem just as strong as any of the male captains. Pushing up her tits would just be making her a Barbie for all the people like you who can't handle that maybe a woman doesn't have to be a toy. That is actually really ridiculous. Wow.
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Old May 31 2013, 09:54 PM   #41
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

I do agree about Janeways behavior in Equinox. I felt she was being irrational and not even hearing out her other crewmembers opinions. However, I thought she was a wonderful captain..not only because she was a female captain, but because she could stare down the Kazon without batting an eyelid!
And she helped her crew get through their seven year journey through the Delta Quadrant!
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Old May 31 2013, 09:55 PM   #42
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

You're refuting math with interpretation of math by individuals who would lie or repeat lies they've been told.
Our memories of what a sensation Jeri Ryan was as Seven at that time should really suffice, but in addition, we have the cast of Voyager, including Kate Mulgrew; and innumerable news agencies, including The New Your Times, who you assume can't read the Nielson ratings and interpret them properly--you are the only one with the specialized knowledge to do this. Or is it that our memories, Kate Mulgrew, and the news agencies are lying to us (as you hint above) for some nefarious reason that only you and Mel Gibson know about?
Now you're talking about "feelings"?

Just because someone had a little heroin in 1996 (not you, it's a metaphor) it doesn't mean that everyone in 1996 was high as a kite. Your personal emotional experiences (now I'm talking about you) are not part of a telepathic gestalt that unifies the emotional spectrum of mankind. You are an island.

The lie is that they didn't say that the ratings went down after they went up. It's still the truth to say that the ratings went up. But it's more complete less skeevy truth to say that the ratings went up for a week and then went down and continued to go down as time went by.

Someone told Kate the ratings went up. Then no one told her they went down, or she chose not to listen to how the ratings were going down. You gotta remember how angry Kate was at this point in her life. She liked Jennifer Lien who was fired, and after that fact she made Jeri Ryan's life HELL like a mean girl for years (look it up) with a palpable systematic regime of passive aggressive abuse. If the ratings go down, her friends get fired. She had absolutely no interest in letting any one know that the ratings are low enough to fire anyone else.

You've never heard the phrase "controlling the narrative"?

The narrative was being controlled and publicists were being paid a lot of money to control it. That's the definition of their job. To force on you beliefs which are not completely true. If you're not (collective you, talking about mankind.) susceptible to coercion and adjustment then TV adverts might as well pack it in.

You were aware of Berman's 10 year contract?

From 1996 to 2005 Rick Berman was paid between 10 and 15 million (bonuses are variable.) per year to oversee all Star Trek, no matter how little or how much Star Trek was being made.

Voyager's season one ratings were comparable to TNG. It's season three ratings were comparable to a wet fart. Voyager was never in danger of being cancelled prematurely because Berman was still going to get paid even if there was no Star Trek and there's no frakking way that they were going to pay him to lolly about for the next 7 years with his thumb up his ass. What was most likely in danger come 1997/8 when they fired Lien and brought in Jeri was Berman's bonuses which had to be tied to Voyagers ratings, DS9's rating and the boxoffice on the shitty movies he was making.

(I suppose they could have cancelled Voyager, and given DS9 another 5 years, but they would have had to write new contracts for everyone which would have screwed with the budget. The point remains, why pay a man 10 million dollars a year to do nothing?)

Rick was still being paid this magnificent salary for the dribble over between the cancellation of Enterprise and when they confirmed that his contract was not going to get renewed for another ten years... But they could not allow him to begin any new projects they had no intention of following through on as he could screw them on good faith claiming that he should be allowed to finish making any series 6 they had allowed him to see into preproduction.

Whatever happened to Rick Berman?

Kate is just an actress. For a living this woman is paid to say things that are not true with conviction. Why is it so hard to believe that she could be mistaken that it was the right thing to do and the best thing ever to fire Jennifer Lien?

Jennifer would have killed the show.

If Jennifer stayed, the series would have been cancelled and Wang would have been living in a card board box inside a month.

Jennifer is evil.

Jennifer is evil and Jeri saved Star Trek Voyager from Jennifer's evil.
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Old May 31 2013, 10:41 PM   #43
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

eskyliz wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

At least Janeway wasn't the one wearing a girdle. In fact she wouldn't wear the dreaded "Star Trek Bra" but that is another story.
But that's obvious--like I said, Janeway looked like a sack of potatoes next to Seven. No matter what she wore she wasn't going to be any competition for Seven, but couldn't she have at least tried? For the series? When Braga told Kate Mulgrew she needed to wear a push-up bra, maybe she should have listened.
Really? You've got to be kidding me.
Yes I was.

eskyliz wrote: View Post

You're saying Janeway was awful because she didn't look sexy enough?
No, Janeway being an abominable captain had nothing to do with her looks. (Well, maybe her looks make her surly at times. Who knows.)
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Old June 1 2013, 12:12 AM   #44
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

JiNX-01 wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You want to talk about Archer?

One of his first first contacts, he transmits coordinates to Earth to some bug eyed baddies before he's completely finished saying hello to prove that they are friendly and doe eyed with no aggressive intentions, which is when the bug eyes started shooting at him, with probably plans to sell most of his crew into slavery who they didn't think would blend well into Friday night's casserole.

"Sigh"

Oh! OH! OH!

What about Harriman?

First day on the job and he kills Kirk.
Um, which episode was that?
Silent Enemy I think.
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Old June 1 2013, 02:46 AM   #45
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Equinox is a bad case study. Kathy's character was famously all over the shop for seven seasons, but Equinox is really the only episode where she acts like that. So it's an easy sell for Voyager's critics to use that episode to paint her in a very bad light, but the truth is that she's fundamentally out-of-character in that two parter. Equinox isn't truly representative of who Captain Janeway really was most of the time.

I often wonder what was going through the writing team's minds when they wrote Equinox. In terms of inconsistency with the rest of the series it's up there with the dreaded Threshold. I still remember feeling "WTF?" when I first saw it because the character dynamic in that episode is just COMPLETELY off-kilter.
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