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Old May 30 2013, 03:02 AM   #91
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

RobertVA wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
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Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.
You have some pretty detailed opinions about how to manage a prison. I can't help wondering... Do you actually have experience working in corrections (as I do) and/or a degree in criminal justice, or have you just been watching a lot of TV?
They're called "Supermax" prisons

Some inmates are bad enough precautions need to be taken to protect other inmates and the prison staff.
Wow, I worked in corrections for 15 years and never knew that! Now, let's try again... Are your opinions about best practices in corrections based on actual knowledge of the field, or are they just... opinions?

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Of topic, but do you work at a jail in Baltimore? Do you want to comment on what happened in the city jail?

I know the jail there is pretty crappy overall due to many factors (including age of the building). On the other hand, the Arlington jail got four stars on Yelp
Four stars on Yelp.

Some random thoughts:

I'm totally shocked by the extent of gang control of BCDC. I'm not shocked that there is a gang problem in general. But how it got as bad as it did, I honestly have no idea.

In my experience, most correctional employees are decent people. Some really care about making their little part of the world safer and/or helping the inmates. And then there are the ones who make everyone else look bad.

I'm assuming that the female officers who were indicted were affiliated in some way with the gang before they were hired as officers and took the job specifically to infiltrate the jail. That was happening a lot of places. A few years ago, TPTB started looking at possible gang connections as part of pre-employment investigations, but these women were hired before then.

I think Secretary Maynard deserves a little credit that he isn't getting: he was the one who called in the FBI in the first place, and now that they've done their thing, he's moved his office into BCDC and is overseeing it directly for a while.

Keeping contraband out of a jail or prison is not as easy as some people assume. But, from what I'm reading about what was going on there, there are a lot of things that should've been done differently/better.

Oh, yeah... yes, I did work in a correctional facility in Baltimore, but I've been on disability for a couple years. I'm way out of the loop by now.
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Old May 30 2013, 04:35 AM   #92
RobertVA
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Re: death penalty

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
Now, let's try again... Are your opinions about best practices in corrections based on actual knowledge of the field, or are they just... opinions?
If I wanted to answer I would have responded the first time. Don't assume things about me I don't clearly type
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Old May 30 2013, 05:00 AM   #93
Alidar Jarok
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Re: death penalty

For what it's worth about supermax prisons. There was a documentary that compared and contrasted two prisons. One was a supermax prison that had 23 1/2 hour lockdown. The other allowed prisoners free access to most facilities and relied on a privilege system where those who broke the rules lost their privileges. Keep in mind these are for the same offense, many of which were capital offenses. The more open facility was safer for the staff, cheaper to run, had fewer disciplinary problems, etc. (not to mention, of course, that it also had lower rates of depression and attempted suicide among inmates). As one guard in the Arlington County jail said, "we discovered if you treat people like animals, they'll start to behave like animals."

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I'm assuming that the female officers who were indicted were affiliated in some way with the gang before they were hired as officers and took the job specifically to infiltrate the jail. That was happening a lot of places. A few years ago, TPTB started looking at possible gang connections as part of pre-employment investigations, but these women were hired before then.
There are reports that infiltration is a deliberate tactic by Baltimore gangs. A disturbingly large number of correctional officers are fired for failing to disclose something that later turned up in a background check. However, it also appears to be testimony to the charisma of the particular gang leader since he managed to recruit unaffiliated officers as well.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:00 AM   #94
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

RobertVA wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
Now, let's try again... Are your opinions about best practices in corrections based on actual knowledge of the field, or are they just... opinions?
If I wanted to answer I would have responded the first time. Don't assume things about me I don't clearly type
If I were really assuming, I wouldn't have asked the question.

So what kind of limits are you suggesting should be put on music?

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
For what it's worth about supermax prisons. There was a documentary that compared and contrasted two prisons. One was a supermax prison that had 23 1/2 hour lockdown. The other allowed prisoners free access to most facilities and relied on a privilege system where those who broke the rules lost their privileges. Keep in mind these are for the same offense, many of which were capital offenses. The more open facility was safer for the staff, cheaper to run, had fewer disciplinary problems, etc. (not to mention, of course, that it also had lower rates of depression and attempted suicide among inmates). As one guard in the Arlington County jail said, "we discovered if you treat people like animals, they'll start to behave like animals."
Yup. Maryland actually closed their supermax a few years ago, because they'd figured out by then the importance of providing programming for inmates, and the building wasn't designed for it. The newest maximum security prison (out in Western Md.) has a behavior modification program that operates something like you describe. I don't remember how many of the inmates take part in it. It's not the whole facility.

I get so tired of people ranting about how prisoners shouldn't be allowed to attend classes or watch TV or whatever. What they don't understand is that busy inmates make for a safer, more secure facility.

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I'm assuming that the female officers who were indicted were affiliated in some way with the gang before they were hired as officers and took the job specifically to infiltrate the jail. That was happening a lot of places. A few years ago, TPTB started looking at possible gang connections as part of pre-employment investigations, but these women were hired before then.
There are reports that infiltration is a deliberate tactic by Baltimore gangs.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't very clear.
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Old May 30 2013, 11:43 AM   #95
Pingfah
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Re: death penalty

Oh hey, when I used to stay in Baltimore, upon waking every morning I was staring right at that Supermax prison in Baltimore, Chesapeake Detention Centre. It was right opposite me. Awful view
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Old May 30 2013, 02:13 PM   #96
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

^ Where the heck were you staying, that you had that view? The Maryland Reception, Diagnostic and Classification Center?

You must've been here fairly recently, calling it the Chesapeake Detention Center. Come to think of it, your spelling would actually be appropriate. The street that happens to run behind the place is called Centre St. Yes, spelled that way, in Baltimore. No idea why.
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Old May 30 2013, 02:21 PM   #97
Pingfah
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Re: death penalty

Just on the other side of the Jones Falls Expressway.
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Old May 30 2013, 03:54 PM   #98
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

^ Ah, nice.
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Old May 30 2013, 04:02 PM   #99
Pingfah
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Re: death penalty

Well, it's a hell of a lot better than being on the same side of the Expressway, that's for sure
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Old May 30 2013, 04:42 PM   #100
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

^ Now don't be picky! You'd have your choice of six different correctional facilities to stay in.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:03 PM   #101
Mr Awe
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Re: death penalty

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
I don't have a problem with it ethically for criminals who are guilty of horrendous crimes as long as they get the full and fair due process, which is quite lengthy and expensives.

However, as a practical matter, I don't think it works to well. It's been shown to not be a deterant. It costs more and ties up more of the legal system. Plus, the stress it places on the jury can cause problems like we just saw in the Jodi Arias trial.

So, ethically, it's all right in some cases but practically not really worthwhile.

Mr Awe
It can never be ethically right, sure some crimes can bring out the worst in us, i.e. That the perpetrator sould be executed, but that is our emotions talking.

But as has already been pointed out wrongful execution can occur. i.e a person who was found guilty but was later found to be innocent.
Sorry, but you can't decide for me what is ethically right.

However, all I'm doing is breaking the components down between ethics and pragmatism.

For me, it is ethically OK to execute someone who is guilty of a heinous crime and has gotten a full and fair due process of the low.

However, it's the pragmatic problems with implementing it in our justice system that dissuade me from its use. I mentioned some of them, but, a huge one is the possibility of an innocent person being convicted.

So, I'm against the death penalty, but not because I think it's unethical to execute someone who truly is guilty of a heinous crime.

Mr Awe
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Old May 30 2013, 08:19 PM   #102
Deckerd
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Re: death penalty

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
I don't have a problem with it ethically for criminals who are guilty of horrendous crimes as long as they get the full and fair due process, which is quite lengthy and expensives.

However, as a practical matter, I don't think it works to well. It's been shown to not be a deterant. It costs more and ties up more of the legal system. Plus, the stress it places on the jury can cause problems like we just saw in the Jodi Arias trial.

So, ethically, it's all right in some cases but practically not really worthwhile.

Mr Awe
It can never be ethically right, sure some crimes can bring out the worst in us, i.e. That the perpetrator sould be executed, but that is our emotions talking.

But as has already been pointed out wrongful execution can occur. i.e a person who was found guilty but was later found to be innocent.
Sorry, but you can't decide for me what is ethically right.

However, all I'm doing is breaking the components down between ethics and pragmatism.

For me, it is ethically OK to execute someone who is guilty of a heinous crime and has gotten a full and fair due process of the low.

However, it's the pragmatic problems with implementing it in our justice system that dissuade me from its use. I mentioned some of them, but, a huge one is the possibility of an innocent person being convicted.

What a daft thing to say. Firstly legal ethics are not a personal choice they are a societal norm. Secondly the choice not to execute because there is a chance the victim is innocent is an ethical decision.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:49 PM   #103
Mr Awe
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Re: death penalty

^^ Well, that's rude!

And, no, for me, no executing because of the chance of a making a mistake is pragmatic. Yes, it's also wrong.

But, if I could be positive someone was guilty of a heinous crime, it's ethically fine to execute them in my book.

And, you're wrong, ethics are personal. What you think is right and wrong may not be the same as my beliefs.

Mr Awe
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Old May 30 2013, 09:44 PM   #104
scotpens
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Re: death penalty

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
And, you're wrong, ethics are personal. What you think is right and wrong may not be the same as my beliefs.
You're speaking of morals, not ethics. For example, abortion is legal and therefore medically ethical, although many people find it personally immoral.
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Old May 31 2013, 02:17 AM   #105
Mr Awe
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Re: death penalty

scotpens wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
And, you're wrong, ethics are personal. What you think is right and wrong may not be the same as my beliefs.
You're speaking of morals, not ethics. For example, abortion is legal and therefore medically ethical, although many people find it personally immoral.
Below is the definition of ethic from Merriam-Webster. Note the use of the term "morals" in the definion. Also, show me where it says it's exclusive to a society rather than an individual. In fact, definition 2b specifically states "the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group".

Definition of ETHIC

1
plural but sing or plural in constr: the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation

2
a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics> <Christian ethics>
bplural but sing or plural in constr: the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics>
c: a guiding philosophy
d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>

3
plural: a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
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