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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 30 2013, 05:21 PM   #16
Use of Time
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

I still hold this episode in the same regard as I did when I first saw it. Maybe its nostalgia or maybe its just that good.
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Old May 30 2013, 05:57 PM   #17
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

BOBW -- never miss it.

That and The Pegasus are my favorite Riker episodes.
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Old May 30 2013, 07:39 PM   #18
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Why was there only a single Borg cube?
Because the idea of more then one cube hadn't been invented yet, the same goes for First contact too. At the time of BOBW the Borg had only been seen once and we didn't really learn anything about them, it wasn't til VOY that the idea of the Borg having millions of cubes came up.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:26 PM   #19
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

davejames wrote: View Post
As for BOBW, I think it still works great for the most part, although granted even the average DS9 two-parter tended to feel a lot more epic and complex. But that's just down to the much simpler storytelling style of TNG.
Excellent point. I would say even certain Voyager episodes felt more epic and complex than TBOBW. You mentioned Scorpion, there was also Year of Hell, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, and Endgame. TBOBW does seem much smaller scale in comparison.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:29 PM   #20
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
As for BOBW, I think it still works great for the most part, although granted even the average DS9 two-parter tended to feel a lot more epic and complex. But that's just down to the much simpler storytelling style of TNG.
Excellent point. I would say even certain Voyager episodes felt more epic and complex than TBOBW. You mentioned Scorpion, there was also Year of Hell, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, and Endgame. TBOBW does seem much smaller scale in comparison.
I disagree. Nothing in Voyager could ever seem really epic because nothing was ever at stake but the fate of one little ship. When I first saw BOTW I was afraid for the entire Federation, for humanity.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:44 PM   #21
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

yes they're as good as I remembered. TNG's finest hour-TV Trek never surpassed the BOBW cliffhanger of season 3.
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Old May 30 2013, 09:26 PM   #22
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I disagree. Nothing in Voyager could ever seem really epic because nothing was ever at stake but the fate of one little ship. When I first saw BOTW I was afraid for the entire Federation, for humanity.
Normally I would agree, but in the case of Scorpion I thought they did a great job making the Delta Quadrant seem like a truly scary and dangerous place again, and making you really fear for the VOY crew (at least for those 2 episodes).

sonak wrote: View Post
yes they're as good as I remembered. TNG's finest hour-TV Trek never surpassed the BOBW cliffhanger of season 3.
Agreed, although for me the destruction of the Odyssey by the Jem-Hadar comes awfully close.
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Old May 30 2013, 09:48 PM   #23
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
As for BOBW, I think it still works great for the most part, although granted even the average DS9 two-parter tended to feel a lot more epic and complex. But that's just down to the much simpler storytelling style of TNG.
Excellent point. I would say even certain Voyager episodes felt more epic and complex than TBOBW. You mentioned Scorpion, there was also Year of Hell, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, and Endgame. TBOBW does seem much smaller scale in comparison.
I disagree. Nothing in Voyager could ever seem really epic because nothing was ever at stake but the fate of one little ship. When I first saw BOTW I was afraid for the entire Federation, for humanity.
To be fair, in TBOBW it didn't seem to me like much was at stake outside of Picard and the Enterprise. Yes, there was that brief scene where we saw the destruction at Wolf 359, but other than that we didn't see many other ships involved.

this is going in a different direction, but I honestly prefer some of the VOY Borg episodes to TBOBW. TNG gave us the Borg, but I think Voyager fleshed them out and made them a little more complex and interesting. Season 6 Survival Instinct was probably my favorite because it explored their humanity and the psychology of the drones in a new and fresh way.
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Old May 31 2013, 03:25 AM   #24
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post

Excellent point. I would say even certain Voyager episodes felt more epic and complex than TBOBW. You mentioned Scorpion, there was also Year of Hell, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, and Endgame. TBOBW does seem much smaller scale in comparison.
I disagree. Nothing in Voyager could ever seem really epic because nothing was ever at stake but the fate of one little ship. When I first saw BOTW I was afraid for the entire Federation, for humanity.
To be fair, in TBOBW it didn't seem to me like much was at stake outside of Picard and the Enterprise. Yes, there was that brief scene where we saw the destruction at Wolf 359, but other than that we didn't see many other ships involved.

this is going in a different direction, but I honestly prefer some of the VOY Borg episodes to TBOBW. TNG gave us the Borg, but I think Voyager fleshed them out and made them a little more complex and interesting. Season 6 Survival Instinct was probably my favorite because it explored their humanity and the psychology of the drones in a new and fresh way.

this is why I like message boards like this. I feel the opposite way on that. I think VOY made the Borg far less interesting and complex(although to be fair ST:FC started it with the queen) through their overuse, and it made them a lot less threatening as well.

The first two appearances of the Borg, in "Q Who" and "BOBW" remain their best to me. It's fun to get the other perspective.
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Old May 31 2013, 07:12 AM   #25
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

BOBW always holds up well for me. Sure, part two never manages to match part one. But, all in all, even after all these years I think it still hits the mark. Part of that for me, I admit, is that I always have a flashback to the first time I saw the episode, and the feelings associated with that always come rushing back remiding me of good times (a bit like TMP).
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Old May 31 2013, 08:32 AM   #26
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

sonak wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post

I disagree. Nothing in Voyager could ever seem really epic because nothing was ever at stake but the fate of one little ship. When I first saw BOTW I was afraid for the entire Federation, for humanity.
To be fair, in TBOBW it didn't seem to me like much was at stake outside of Picard and the Enterprise. Yes, there was that brief scene where we saw the destruction at Wolf 359, but other than that we didn't see many other ships involved.

this is going in a different direction, but I honestly prefer some of the VOY Borg episodes to TBOBW. TNG gave us the Borg, but I think Voyager fleshed them out and made them a little more complex and interesting. Season 6 Survival Instinct was probably my favorite because it explored their humanity and the psychology of the drones in a new and fresh way.

this is why I like message boards like this. I feel the opposite way on that. I think VOY made the Borg far less interesting and complex(although to be fair ST:FC started it with the queen) through their overuse, and it made them a lot less threatening as well.

The first two appearances of the Borg, in "Q Who" and "BOBW" remain their best to me. It's fun to get the other perspective.
I agree wholeheartedly. The Borg were at there best when they were silent, deadly enemies. None of that talk you into submission or reason with you bs VOY added.

Best Borg showings IMO

TNG Q Who Introduction of an enemy Picard and his crew were quickly outmatched by. The taunting by Q and Picard begging for assistance made this all the more potent.
Rating A

TNG BOBW still holds ups. A fine go get'em action two parter. Rating A+

TNG First Contact The Best film TNG has to offer and still holds up compared to modern go get'em action flicks like STID. Like i said the Borg are at there best when they are being threatening, doing things and saying very little. The Borg Picard and Worf were fighting the majority of the film carry the action and pace. While the queen and he subplot could be cut out of the film and you wouldn't lose anything really. She's really only there to have a main villain for unfamiliar audiences to identify as the master and to tempt Data.
Rating A+

VOY Scorpion After the abysmal episode "Unity". This episode gives the audience and fans what they wanted after first contact. Elevated to new heights because it shows the Borg struggling against an equally powerful adversary Species 8472. With the VOY crew largely along for the ride.
Rating A

ENT Regeneration After a series of disappointing outings in VOY we finally get an episode that "gets" the Borg". The Borg are menacing and proactive. These Borg do much and say next to nothing. By episodes end they remain enigmatic, mysterious and threatening.
Rating A


Borg Episodes that are lesser sons of greater sires

TNG I, Borg Doesn't feature the Borg as an antagonist, but interesting character study on Borg becoming individuals. Not the best but it's a great contrast to VOY's "The Gift". Where Janeway forces the now individual 7 of 9 to become an individual and stay on Voyager. While Picard allowed Hugh to choose whether he wanted to stay an individual.
Rating B

TNG Descent i don't count as a Borg episode since the Borg as a collective did not appear and was only a collection of discarded drones.

VOY Unity Stupid pile of junk. Good thing the Borg had wigs on those cubes otherwise the mystery of this episode would've been solved in the first couple of minutes. Neat contrast to Hugh from "I, Borg". Borg drones become individuals and the first thing they do is form a NEW collective. No one escapes the Borg!
Rating D

VOY Drone Takes the piss and extreme risk involved by allowing the birth of a 29th century Borg. Janeway obviously didn't learn from the episode "Future's End" when she faced 29th century tech.
Rating C

Infinite Regress Silly at times but when Seven is lost among the billions of minds racing through her head, you can really feel sorry for the Borg's victims. But it doesn't keep the tone balanced enough to continue that emotional resonance. Rating C

Dark Frontier I find the parts with the Hansen's annoying. The Borg are downgraded so much that it becomes comical how easily the Hansen's follow and beam in and off the cube. Equate this to say the Cylons from NuBSG, or Daleks from Doctor Who. Imagine the Hansen or whoever family stalking one of theirships for 3 years, beaming on and off it, and beaming daleks or cyclons off it and performing tests on it before returning it to their ship. If that had ever happened how could you ever take them serious as threats ever again? Not to mention Janeway stands in the center of a Borg unimatrix, surrounded by MILLIONS of drons and basically talks the queen in to submission before being beamed away. The Borg can assimilate billions of people and conquer thousands of worlds, but can't destroy Voyager when they are literally in the belly of the beast?
Rating C+

Survival Instinct Interesting, gripping and tragic. While I was tired of the talks about individuality by this point during my run though VOY. The premise and what 7 inadvertently did to those her fellows drones is scary and truly signifies you never really can leave the collective if liberated
Rating B

VOY Collective Borg children... taking the piss hard in this episode.
Rating F

VOY Child's Play taking the piss to and even higher heights. Is that simple prosthetic on his nose and forehead all that it takes to pass for an alien this far in to VOY? Plus the episode was stupid.
Rating F

VOY Unimatrix 01 Regeneration leads to a happy dreamland for all Borg where no Borg remembers when they wake up. Alice or rather Seven of Nine has stumbled into this magical land and adventure ensues. And the Red Queen's off with their heads! Remember what the door mouse said!
But no seriously, the Borg are shown to be on one sever, all with the same wifi access for communication and adaptaion when in range of one another. Shockingly with all this the Borg Queen can't find a way into Unimatrix 01 or just pull the plug and or make a new sever for the Borg???
Rating C

VOY Q2 "DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!!! Said Papa Q. Or else what? By this time in VOY the Borg have been neutered. I always expected the Borg would seek higher aspirations, become pure energy beings like the Bajoran Prophets, Metrons or Q, but it never happened. Maybe that's what Papa Q is worried about in the Borg's future?
Rating is Irrelevant

VOY Endgame Borg are dealt a crushing blow by the hyper-inflated ego Capt Janeway and Deus Ex Adm Janeway. Capt Janeway; who despite earlier seasons lamenting her decision about stranding her crew in the DQ. Now meets her future self and instead of taking time to reflect on her experiences and the future knowledge her counterpart gives her. Capt Janeway's head swells even more. Adm Janeway is proof of her success in the end no matter how high the cost may grow! Also wasn't Part 1 of "Endgame" the same stick as "TNG AGT's" or maybe i'm seeing parallels where they aren't there.
Rating D


Remember all ratings are subjective to opinion and these are my opinions. Speaking of did anyone ever read the novel where Janeway was made a Borg queen? This amazing artist did a pic of one. Janeway being made a Borg Queen time traveling to battle Captain Janeway in VOY "Endgame" would've made a more satisfying ending me thinks.

http://www.g672.deviantart.com
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Old May 31 2013, 04:51 PM   #27
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
TNG First Contact The Best film TNG has to offer and still holds up compared to modern go get'em action flicks like STID. Like i said the Borg are at there best when they are being threatening, doing things and saying very little. The Borg Picard and Worf were fighting the majority of the film carry the action and pace. While the queen and he subplot could be cut out of the film and you wouldn't lose anything really. She's really only there to have a main villain for unfamiliar audiences to identify as the master and to tempt Data.
Rating A+
FC certainly has a lot to recommend it, but personally I thought the Borg themselves were one of the least effective things in it. Frakes' TV-style directing is never really able to make them truly scary or intimidating (resorting to cheesy tricks like the red lasers coming on all at once in the dark), and the constant cutting back to lighthearted scenes on the planet undercuts a lot of the tension as well.

And while Alice Krige was fantastic as the Borg Queen, her presence suddenly makes the Borg as a whole seem a lot less interesting and unique (they're basically just the zenomorphs from Aliens now).
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Old June 1 2013, 12:21 AM   #28
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Part I still holds up as one of the best Trek productions ever.

Part II - especially when presented with Part I - feels lacking. Part I had mood and dread with great atmosphere. Part II felt too procedural and by-the-numbers by comparison. Part II is still a top 10 episode though.
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Old June 1 2013, 02:43 AM   #29
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Why was there only a single Borg cube?
Because the idea of more then one cube hadn't been invented yet, the same goes for First contact too. At the time of BOBW the Borg had only been seen once and we didn't really learn anything about them, it wasn't til VOY that the idea of the Borg having millions of cubes came up.
Didn't Guinan say that "when they come, they're gonna come in force"? That suggests lots of cubes to me.
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Old June 1 2013, 02:46 AM   #30
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
To be fair, in TBOBW it didn't seem to me like much was at stake outside of Picard and the Enterprise. Yes, there was that brief scene where we saw the destruction at Wolf 359, but other than that we didn't see many other ships involved.
Even though they had the Cube go straight to Earth?
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