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Old May 30 2013, 05:46 PM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Considering the sheer size of the two ships, it's fairly safe to assume the Constitution would have a higher power output, which would translate to more weapon power, more shield power and so forth. Not to mention a larger crew which means better damage control. The Miranda would seem to have the edge in maneuverability, which coupled with it's smaller profile and seemingly wider weapons arc would make the contest interesting.

The Constitution was shown to have aft torpedoes in Enterprise's In a Mirror Darkly, so you could make an argument either way if the refit did or didn't, because we didn't see it. Almost every Trek video game features them having an aft torpedo and it's a boneheaded design flaw if it didn't. Even if it did though, most of it's firepower is concentrated towards the sides and bow, and not the rear. I seem to remember a display(in ST3 I think) clearly calling Enterprise a Heavy Cruiser and Krudge's crew did say "Federation battle cruiser" when annoucing Enterprise's approach. So Reliant would seem to be a frigate or light cruiser at that time.

I'd have to give the edge to the Constitution is a straight up fight. Though a Miranda may well be able to evade and escape from one if it isn't forced into battle. Kirk's blame or lack thereof aside, Reliant was more powerful than Enterprise because Khan got in the first hit with shields down and that was the determining factor in each subsequent engagement.
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Old May 30 2013, 05:48 PM   #17
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

BillJ wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Connie wipes the floor with the Miranda. The only reason Reliant had a shot against the Enterprise is because Admiral Kirk was an idiot.
It's the reason they took a beating, but the idea was that the Reliant was a more advanced starship. It's also more heavily armed, so even in a fair fight it might not be a Constitution win.
Is any of this in the actual movie or just shit folks have made up after the fact?
Well there is not much to go from the movies.

And you cant really use the 24th century versions as they will be refited with 24th century tec.

All that can be really used in the technical mannuals, books ect

By the way they should really write some cannon techinical manuels or make some of the ones floating about cannon.
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Old May 30 2013, 05:53 PM   #18
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

All I know is that Scotty says they only have enough power for a "few shots" (referring to phasers) and with those few shots they were able to send Reliant on the run with its tail tucked between its legs.
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Last edited by BillJ; May 30 2013 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Auto-correct run amok...
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Old May 30 2013, 06:04 PM   #19
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

That was from "just the battery" and a few well placed shots with the shields down can all but disarm a ship. A few well placed shots with the shields down crippled Enterprise after all.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:20 PM   #20
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

R. Star wrote: View Post
That was from "just the battery" and a few well placed shots with the shields down can all but disarm a ship. A few well placed shots with the shields down crippled Enterprise after all.
But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:26 PM   #21
R. Star
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

BillJ wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
That was from "just the battery" and a few well placed shots with the shields down can all but disarm a ship. A few well placed shots with the shields down crippled Enterprise after all.
But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
And the damage to Enterprise was much more extensive than that of Reliant. They were fully functional again within a few hours after all. Enterprise was still beat up by the time they got back to Starbase in the next movie.

If Kirk got shields up a couple seconds sooner, that would've been a very interesting fight. I think "doesn't stand a chance" is a bit overstating it though. Reliant would've still gotten in the first hits to be sure, but Enterprise wouldn't have been crippled, even if at a disadvantage given they'd have lost a good portion of their shield power. It would've been a slugging match to be sure from that point as Enterprise is making up ground with their superior firepower for the rest of the fight. I think Enterprise(especially with Kirk commanding) would've come out ahead, but I suppose we'll never know there.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:32 PM   #22
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

They weren't fully functional, they had only restored impulse power...

JOACHIM: Impulse power restored.
KHAN: Excellent! More than a match for poor Enterprise.

And once they got into the nebula, the Enterprise used Reliant as a punching bag.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:38 PM   #23
Faria
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

BillJ wrote: View Post

But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
Naaa

the reliant was better armed, 4 torpedo launchers, 14 phaser emitters and 2 phaser cannon, than reliant was built after the constitution and problaby has more advance technology

i think reliant was an heavy cruise and tmp reliant a light cruiser
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Old May 30 2013, 06:40 PM   #24
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Faria wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
Naaa

the reliant was better armed, 4 torpedo launchers, 14 phaser emitters and 2 phaser cannon, than reliant was built after the constitution and problaby has more advance technology

i think reliant was an heavy cruise and tmp reliant a light cruiser
Where do your stats come from?
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Old May 30 2013, 06:50 PM   #25
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

The Miranda's not really lighter than the Constitution, though.
But the definition of "light cruiser" ITRW had basically zip to do with displacement anyway. It was solely a matter of gun caliber, and many a light cruiser far out-bulked contemporary heavies, or (in Japan and the US) was eventually changed into a heavy cruiser simply by swapping her triple 6in turrets for twin 8in ones.

Anyway, I don't remember where I read this, but the Reliant in TWOK was meant to be more advanced.
The original story concept was for Khan to capture an outdated starship - a TOS Constitution... And then (initially) triumph simply because he was the better or at least more ruthless captain.

Again, from TWOK, the weapons and hulls seem evenly matched. Of course we don't have much to go by.
Or, we have a lot to go by (basically more than in any other TOS episode or movie), but both the hero and the villain are either pulling their punches or fighting wounded in all the witnessed exchanges of fire.

If we assume identical phasers and torpedoes for both, then the battle is probably decided on one of two things:

a) Some things in TOS suggest that first hits count, much like in early 20th century naval gun battles, so the ship with better long range sensors should win.
b) Some things support 17th-18th century naval gun battle models instead, where the ability to endure long pummeling is decisive, so the ship with better shields should win.

Apart from that, I'm not sure what real advantage the aft torpedoes of the Miranda would give, except perhaps in chase battles.

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Old May 30 2013, 07:27 PM   #26
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

BillJ wrote: View Post
Is any of this in the actual movie or just shit folks have made up after the fact?
It's from interviews with the people who designed the Reliant but I don't remember where I read it. The Official Fan Club magasine, maybe, but that was long ago. I've already admitted that.
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Old May 30 2013, 08:34 PM   #27
Faria
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

BillJ wrote: View Post
Faria wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
Naaa

the reliant was better armed, 4 torpedo launchers, 14 phaser emitters and 2 phaser cannon, than reliant was built after the constitution and problaby has more advance technology

i think reliant was an heavy cruise and tmp reliant a light cruiser
Where do your stats come from?
movie evidence
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Old May 30 2013, 09:16 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

That's the old chestnut - how many weapons does Khan's ship have?

Apart from the use of the Genesis device as a weapon, the movie only shows two types of weapons: torpedo tubes (easily established as Kirk 2, Khan 4, even though Kirk has something called "Torp Bay 4"), and phasers. There is no third type of weapon in evidence: we don't hear of any "phaser cannon", nor do we see one in action.

Kirk's ship has eighteen phaser turrets: three twin ones above and three twin ones below the saucer, four single ones below the secondary hull, and two single ones atop the shuttlebay. Khan's ship has either sixteen or eighteen phaser turrets: three twin ones above and three twin ones below the saucer, possibly two single ones next to the impulse engine (visible in some backstage photographs of the model, not visible in the later incarnations of the ship in TNG or DS9), and then two single ones on the outer sides of the cylinders on the "roll bar".

Kirk's ship only ever fires from the twin banks below the saucer. Khan's ship only ever fires from the single banks on the sides of the cylinders. Both ships shoot identical beams, with identical results against unshielded ships.

There are no beams coming from the cylinders themselves, that is, from their forward or aft ends. The beams Khan first fires are drawn as beginning from the sides of the cylinders, where these single yellow-painted ball turrets exist. There is a white light coming from the forward end of the cylinder, function unknown.

If the white light thing is a weapon, we are left wondering why Khan never used it. If some of Khan's phaser turrets are more powerful than the single ones on the sides of the cylinders, we are left wondering why Khan never used them. In the end, it seems Khan only had one type of phaser weapon available, and all sixteen or eighteen of them had equal destructive power, so the choice of one over another was arbitrary.

Naturally, we may invent reasons for Khan's "odd decisions". Perhaps he never learned to use the white-light weapons? Perhaps using them would have called for more crew than he had? But we may just as well decide that the white-light things were navigational deflectors or sensor pods or communications arrays or just plain searchlights. They did not affect the balance of power in ST2:TWoK, and they never saw action in any other incarnation of Star Trek.

FWIW, the movie does not suggest that Khan's ship would be newer than Kirk's, or more advanced. She has the same interiors, the same controls, even the same color scheme. Her registry is higher than that of Kirk's ship, but not by much, and we already saw registries that high back in TOS, suggesting that both the hero ship and the villain ship underwent a refit to their movie specs after serving in a TOS style guise previously...

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Old May 30 2013, 09:23 PM   #29
Belz...
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Right, evidence from the movie is inconclusive, and I can't for the life of me remember where I read that "more advanced" thing.
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Old May 30 2013, 10:26 PM   #30
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Reliant could be "more advanced" based on the higher registry.

The higher registry could indicate a newer vessel (though not necessarily) and a newer vessel could be assumed to be more advanced (though not necessarily).

And even then, "more advanced" needn't be in terms of weapons or combat capability. The advances could be in computing power or sensor range or life support or power generation or whatever.
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