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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 29 2013, 05:06 PM   #181
Belz...
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Re: Why did they bother...

Wait, _never heard_ ? Are they interested in movies at all ?
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Old May 29 2013, 08:44 PM   #182
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Re: Why did they bother...

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
So, if Jack Black....yes that Jack Black--as is--slipped on the pointed ears, delivered his lines in a monotone voice and sported the haircut, he would be Spock, just as much as Nimoy?
Please don't give the producers any ideas....
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Old May 29 2013, 10:53 PM   #183
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Why did they bother...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Notice how quick you were to dismiss a real experience as proof of nothing, meanwhile some perform message board gymnastics trying to pretend history did not play out a certain way.
I merely pointed out she was citing an anecdote, and a second-hand one at that. It would be inadmissible evidence. Why? Because it doesn't prove anything relevant to the argument.

All it proves is she has a friend who says he met some people in a far-away land who knew who Kirk and Spock were. That only suggests they're familiar. It does not prove they're iconic.
Your reply is what is called a dodge. Any culture not well-exposed to the popular culture of another country, yet some of its citizens instantly recognize actors/characters means the subjects have reached that rare status of transcending the medium (and culture) which brought them to the attention of the public. Few actors and their signature characters are so successful--certainly not going on 5 decades.

sj's Fudd analogy was a sound one. I'm sorry you didn't like it.
It was not: as Carcazoid pointed out to sj, Fudd did not start out as described, but was based on another character altogether. Already the historically inaccurate analogy earned holes large enough to sink it.


However, calling the Superman comparison "silly" only proves you still don't understand what an icon is.
Icon as used in popular cultural terms is not limited to a person, image or object with a passing resemblance, but a defined image which made a cultural, artistic and historical impact that is not handed off like a baton in a race.

This should not need to be explained.

If it simply passed on, then--for example--the characters from the remake Planet of the Apes films would be held to the same iconic standard as the original characters. Try finding anyone believing that.



The "iconic" Frankenstein's Monster is a derivative composite of the Dawly, Testa, and Whale films combined with various re-imagings of the period.

As such, there have been plenty of dolls, posters, paintings, etc. that are all clearly Frankenstein's monster and look nothing like Karloff specifically.
We are talking about the actor (Karloff) and his character, not watered down ancillary products which were anything except accurate for decades.


Certainly, the Whale films influenced the modern image heavily. But the traits that people associate with the Monster have nothing to do with Karloff or his face.
Karloff was hired for the role in large part due to his facial structure, which suited the strange direction of the makeup (including removing the bridgework from his mouth to make the cheeks appear sunken--or corpse-like).

Every Universal Frankenstein film to follow was based on the physical characteristics Karloff gave to the character. Without a doubt, the emotional end--which also made the Karloff version timeless--was not to be found in Chaney, Lugosi or Strange, hence the easily ridiculed "performances," and their glaring inability to reach Karloff's status as a performer and the character he defined.

This is the perfect comparison to Shatner/Kirk and Nimoy/Spock.

I could post side by side pictures of Chaplin, RDJ, and the guy from the 80s IBM commercials (who I think might have even been a woman), and I bet a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
The problem with that theory rests in facial features--like the Karloff example. Chaplin had a very distinctive set of eyes and smile, whether playing the "tramp" character or not. Similarly, RDJ's eyes are his own--you cannot mistake him for anyone else, which was the case long before he became globally famous as Iron Man.

Side by side (Google it, if you care to), there's no resemblance stronger than one playing dress up in a fan film.

As far as the whole De Niro thing, I think most people would be able to figure it out. You don't give them enough credit.
His appearance is not only mundane (as far as movi man-made monsters go), but can you find anyone who even remembers the role

Funny thing though, Branagh based his on the Shelly cover. It was the definitive image of Frankenstein's Monster for a century.
Although the story was quite famous pre-film, the numerous prinitings did not have a universal (no pun intended) image of the creature. I've seen a few of the early editions, and much was left to the reader's imagination. The cinema age granted the ability to form a single vision, which just so happened to strike film and cultural lightning, hence the reason the Karloff portrayal hard-defined a character born on the printed page, with no other filmed version (even if adhering to the novel description) coming close...

..or recognized at all.


Now the iconic image of Elvis is most likely "old" Elvis, and that begs the question was it created by him himself or by the last 40 years of Vegas impersonators?
If by old you're talking about the white, sequined jumpsuit period, Elvis made that famous in the last few years of his life, which inspired the impersonators to go overboard with that version as a tribute--of a kind--to the last living image of the man.

People need to stop lobbying for Nimoy's ownership of a character. He has stated it's not his.
Nimoy is free to say that, but his cultural effect cannot be erased. He's being the good soldier to help J.J. out, but if he's not capable of racing back through time to alter key events (First Contact Borg style), he's out of luck. To play on Nimoy's own sequel book, he is Spock...and Spock is Nimoy.
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Old May 29 2013, 11:02 PM   #184
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Re: Why did they bother...

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Icon as used in popular cultural terms is not limited to a person, image or object with a passing resemblance, but a defined image which made a cultural, artistic and historical impact that is not handed off like a baton in a race.

This should not need to be explained.
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Old May 29 2013, 11:06 PM   #185
Chemahkuu
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Re: Why did they bother...

The characters are the intellectual property of Paramount Pictures to do with as they please. As is the show, and all associated material. They are not works of art being altered, they are names and details on a page that others can bring to the screen as fits any new production.

*That* should not have to be explained.
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Old May 30 2013, 12:08 AM   #186
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Re: Why did they bother...

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
People need to stop lobbying for Nimoy's ownership of a character. He has stated it's not his.
Nimoy is free to say that, but his cultural effect cannot be erased. He's being the good soldier to help J.J. out, but if he's not capable of racing back through time to alter key events (First Contact Borg style), he's out of luck. To play on Nimoy's own sequel book, he is Spock...and Spock is Nimoy.
Nope. The actor plays a character- the character ISN'T the actor. Otherwise nothing would ever be revived. Mozart wrote parts of his opera for certain performers based on their abilities, but his operas are still performed all over the world over 200 years later. As long as someone can convincingly perform a part (in a play, opera, tv show or movie), then it doesn't matter what the name of the actor is. I see no reason to let a story like Star Trek and the original characters die out completely when it can (and has) been successfully revived. And I will never hear the singers who sang in the first ever performance of Mozart's "The Magic Flute"...but I know the story and I know the music well- I even know the history of it because I've read about it. Why let a tv show like TOS die out just because some people are attached to the original actors? It makes no sense.

Last edited by M'Sharak; May 30 2013 at 12:48 AM. Reason: quote tags sorted
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Old May 30 2013, 03:02 AM   #187
Captain Nebula
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Re: Why did they bother...

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Quinto is Spock now
Are you sure?

Is this guy Spock?

http://agitprop.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...a123970c-320wi
[He's hotlinked from web space which is not yours. Converting to link. M']

How about this guy?

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2442/4...285_z.jpg?zz=1

[Hotlinked. - M']

Or this guy?

http://www.helpcatoosa.com/wp-conten...personator.jpg

[Hotlinked. - M']

Or even this guy?

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6090/6...13f94cd5_z.jpg

[Hotlinked. Please refer to FAQ section concerning posting of images. - M']

You can say you are whoever, but not everybody has to like it.
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Last edited by M'Sharak; May 30 2013 at 04:53 AM. Reason: hotlinked images
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Old May 30 2013, 03:11 AM   #188
The Dead Mixer
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Re: Why did they bother...

Somebody give that last Spock a sandwich...!
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Old May 30 2013, 03:18 AM   #189
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Re: Why did they bother...

There are other things on TV and at the movie theaters. Plus there's a huge backlog of prior Trek to enjoy.

If the Abrams films don't work I don't understand the point of hanging around to complain about them. It's time that could be used to enjoy other things in life.
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Old May 30 2013, 03:46 AM   #190
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Re: Why did they bother...

BillJ wrote: View Post
If the Abrams films don't work I don't understand the point of hanging around to complain about them. It's time that could be used to enjoy other things in life.
Well, wanting them to work is one reason. Being a long time Trek fan is another.
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Old May 30 2013, 03:53 AM   #191
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Re: Why did they bother...

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Nimoy is free to say that, but his cultural effect cannot be erased.
It can be challenged. It's reasonable to doubt the idea that a particularly strong "cultural effect" even exists in this respect. Because you assert it to be so doesn't mean it is so.

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Quinto is Spock now
Are you sure?
Yes.
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Old May 30 2013, 04:20 AM   #192
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Re: Why did they bother...

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
It can be challenged. It's reasonable to doubt the idea that a particularly strong "cultural effect" even exists in this respect. Because you assert it to be so doesn't mean it is so.
The opposite can be said with equal vigor, and no firm footing can be found from either position if the only consensus anyone can reach is "It's your opinion."

The facts remain. Star Trek, the original series and it's characters, did in fact play a large part in influencing culture and the paths of many hundreds if not thousands of people over the decades. This, to many of those inspired, was attributed specifically to the actors. (Kelley, Takei, Nichols, Doohan, and Koenig have all relayed stories on this manner time and again.
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Old May 30 2013, 04:30 AM   #193
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Re: Why did they bother...

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
The opposite can be said with equal vigor, and no firm footing can be found from either position if the only consensus anyone can reach is "It's your opinion."
Eh. "Leonard Nimoy doesn't own Spock," is a fact.
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Old May 30 2013, 04:37 AM   #194
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Re: Why did they bother...

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
It can be challenged. It's reasonable to doubt the idea that a particularly strong "cultural effect" even exists in this respect. Because you assert it to be so doesn't mean it is so.
The opposite can be said with equal vigor, and no firm footing can be found from either position if the only consensus anyone can reach is "It's your opinion."
Exactly so. And the problem is...?

Back when TNG premiered, the TOS-only fans predicted that it would fail. When it didn't fail, they started predicting instead that no one would remember it in twenty years. Essentially, what happened was that they found themselves on the losing end of the argument where things could be measured quantitatively - current success and public acceptance - so they asserted a position that was based entirely on opinion and speculation and therefore couldn't be factually challenged.

Of course, they turned out to be wrong about that too, twenty years later.

All of these TOS-only assertions about the "iconic nature," primacy and durability of the original portrayals of Kirk and Spock are the same kind of thing - since the new version of Star Trek is more successful on the big screen than the old version by those standards which can be measured and compared objectively, it's necessary to retreat into claims and opinions that can 't be proven one way or the other to try to dismiss nuTrek.

There's really no reason to believe that in a decade or so these claims will hold up any better than those made against TNG.
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Old May 30 2013, 05:20 AM   #195
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Re: Why did they bother...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
OpenMaw wrote: View Post
The opposite can be said with equal vigor, and no firm footing can be found from either position if the only consensus anyone can reach is "It's your opinion."
Eh. "Leonard Nimoy doesn't own Spock," is a fact.
Not really - its still your opinion.
I think Nimoy 'owns' Spock. My definition of 'owns' may be different from yours - fact.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
It can be challenged. It's reasonable to doubt the idea that a particularly strong "cultural effect" even exists in this respect. Because you assert it to be so doesn't mean it is so.
The opposite can be said with equal vigor, and no firm footing can be found from either position if the only consensus anyone can reach is "It's your opinion."
Exactly so. And the problem is...?

Back when TNG premiered, the TOS-only fans predicted that it would fail. When it didn't fail, they started predicting instead that no one would remember it in twenty years. Essentially, what happened was that they found themselves on the losing end of the argument where things could be measured quantitatively - current success and public acceptance - so they asserted a position that was based entirely on opinion and speculation and therefore couldn't be factually challenged.

Of course, they turned out to be wrong about that too, twenty years later.

All of these TOS-only assertions about the "iconic nature," primacy and durability of the original portrayals of Kirk and Spock are the same kind of thing - since the new version of Star Trek is more successful on the big screen than the old version by those standards which can be measured and compared objectively, it's necessary to retreat into claims and opinions that can 't be proven one way or the other to try to dismiss nuTrek.

There's really no reason to believe that in a decade or so these claims will hold up any better than those made against TNG.
You know they could have rebooted TNG and I would have said Patrick Stewart still 'owns' Picard and Brett Spiner 'owns' Data. Thats because they had 7 seasons and 4 movies.

A new cast may eventually 'own' them but not after just 2 movies. The original portrayals are still quintessential to me. To the people who haven't seen the original TV series and movies then this is their Kirk and Spock - I understand. And to people who never liked TOS well here's something better.

And yes you can dismiss me with saying I'm going to be dead soon .
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