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Old May 29 2013, 08:45 PM   #31
Dale Sams
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Re: death penalty in star trek

Timo wrote: View Post
Makes good sense. Criminals in TOS aren't punished - they are cured. You can be cured of being a murderous asshole, and punishing you would serve no purpose whatsoever. Well, except satisfy the bloodlust of your victims. But if they have such bloodlust, they are disgusting criminals themselves, and need to be cured.

But going to Talos is not a crime. It's a fatal mistake. You can't be cured of going to Talos, because you are irrevocably corrupted by Talosians; you will help them escape their planet; and then the whole galaxy will fall to their telepathic powers. The only cure to that is death: if you return from Talos, you can't be allowed to live.

That is, until the events of "The Menagerie" prove that the quarantine of Talos is futile from the get-go, as Spock has been corrupted across interstellar distances and a starship has been brought for the Talosians to use. All is lost at this point, and the death penalty makes no sense: either Talosians have proved their goodwill by not taking over the universe and the penalty is not needed for containment, or they have already taken over Starfleet with their illusions and the penalty won't do any good!

Timo Saloniemi
I took it to prevent people from going to Talos and learning their vast powers. Not to prevent the Talosians from doing anything.

"KEEPER: Your race would learn our power of illusion and destroy itself, too."

Which, if a simple thing, is exactly what would happen. And if it is a simple thing, then I think the death penalty is very warranted. But as someone else noted....the sheer curiosity this would create...how will you keep it a secret? Hell, the Klingons were all over Genesis before Kirk even got back to Earth.
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Old May 29 2013, 09:00 PM   #32
R. Star
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Re: death penalty in star trek

I love the twisted morality at times in Trek. "We won't kill a criminal, but if a random disease or geological disaster strikes... well screw those billions of people, it's not ethical to help them."
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Old May 29 2013, 09:51 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: death penalty in star trek

I took it to prevent people from going to Talos and learning their vast powers. Not to prevent the Talosians from doing anything.

"KEEPER: Your race would learn our power of illusion and destroy itself, too."
That's the Talosian argument. And Starfleet would see the Talosians as the villains, so it isn't likely they would listen to their argument... Rather, they'd suspect the worst.

I love the twisted morality at times in Trek. "We won't kill a criminal, but if a random disease or geological disaster strikes... well screw those billions of people, it's not ethical to help them."
The TOS folks never let billions die, while the TNG folks never cured any criminals...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 30 2013, 09:39 PM   #34
Dale Sams
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Re: death penalty in star trek

Timo wrote: View Post
I took it to prevent people from going to Talos and learning their vast powers. Not to prevent the Talosians from doing anything.

"KEEPER: Your race would learn our power of illusion and destroy itself, too."
That's the Talosian argument. And Starfleet would see the Talosians as the villains, so it isn't likely they would listen to their argument... Rather, they'd suspect the worst.

I love the twisted morality at times in Trek. "We won't kill a criminal, but if a random disease or geological disaster strikes... well screw those billions of people, it's not ethical to help them."
The TOS folks never let billions die, while the TNG folks never cured any criminals...

Timo Saloniemi
That's the only argument that makes sense. If the Talosians were true villains they'd have said, "Oh, mutual cooperation. That's a great idea. Let's do that."
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Old May 30 2013, 09:55 PM   #35
Timo
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Re: death penalty in star trek

Starfleet believes that mankind should not learn things? TOS stands testimony against that. "We can handle superpowers!" is the unofficial Starfleet motto, even if said handling generally consists of forgetting all about them by the next episode.

Talosians may say true things, say false things, or stay quiet; after Pike's report, Starfleet won't listen. (Indeed, they have put a death penalty on listening!)

Timo Saloniemi
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