RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,616
Posts: 5,426,158
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 421
Newest member: 8 of 9

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 28 2013, 11:09 PM   #136
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
Kestra wrote: View Post
I feel like people are confusing things here. The argument isn't that art and music are progressing at a greater rate, it's that there are both awesome and terrible things out there now, like there have always been. I see progress here as referring to development and change, not saying that it's somehow inherently better than everything that's come before.
Exactly as Kestra says. STJ, you insult my literacy, and yet completely failed to understand my argument. Why are you being so obtuse? I was using the phrase 'near-exponential' as a non-literal qualifier to argue that science is progressing at a remarkable rate. Apologies, as I did not realize this would cause you so much confusion. The claim that we are more literate than we have ever been is not dubious, unless you can demonstrate a point in history when a greater percentage of the world's population could read. Can you do so?

I asked for objective measures of the claimed devolution of society. In asking I was hoping to specifically demonstrate that by using the entirely subjective (art and music) as evidence, your stance is unsupportable. I never claimed that art and music were improving in some objective quality, only that, as Kestra noted, there has always been good and bad, and that it is a very near-sighted and silly position indeed to pronounce the decline of civilization based on one's own distaste towards new music. This position also belies a huge amount of egotism, as you must presume to have knowledge of all the art and music out there, and further presume that you're own opinion of it is more valid than other people's.

Again, we are more scientifically advanced than ever before, and our science and technology are inarguably progressing. We are more literate than ever before. You have admitted that the quality of art and music is subjective and so cannot be used as objective evidence to support your position. So, do you have objective evidence of the decline of culture? And can you possibly provide it without being rude?
No, progress does not mean development and change, it means movement toward a goal. No, I did not say the existence of universal literacy was dubious, I said its relevance is dubious. No, I did not admit quality is subjective, and in fact I implicitly offered (as horation83 noted above) the definition of something that stands the test of time. No, objective does not mean perfect, nor does it even mean quantitative, much less easy to apply.

Yes, asking for objective measures when you do not believe in any objectivity at all is an obvious rhetorical ploy (and an insulting one at that.) Yes, talking about progress and awesomeness and such is claiming that it is better, which directly contradicts the alleged argument (and is kind of insulting to think no one notice.) Yes, the insistence that age is an automatic disqualifier for comprehending the good stuff out there is insulting. Yes, it is entirely possible for a society to convince itself that its culture is just dandy when it has objectively declined.

And that's why I noted that was the interesting question as to how someone inside the cultural bubble could notice that the bubble was shrinking when everyone around them says differently. There a lot of people who believe what people tell them before their lying eyes, especially when they think it's all subjective, except for old people whose subjectivity doesn't count.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:34 PM   #137
sojourner
Admiral
 
sojourner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

^So, that would be a "no" on being able to provide any objective qualifiers?
__________________
Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
sojourner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:45 PM   #138
Avon
Fleet Captain
 
Avon's Avatar
 
Location: Space Wales
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

i guess having a symbol of communistical totalitarian oppression as an avatar sort of rules out objectivity
__________________

Hello to Jason Isaacs!
Avon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 12:24 AM   #139
thestrangequark
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangequark's Avatar
 
Location: thestrangequark
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

sojourner wrote: View Post
^So, that would be a "no" on being able to provide any objective qualifiers?
Looks like it. Can't say I'm surprised.
__________________
The Enterprise is my TARDIS.

View my art!
thestrangequark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 12:12 PM   #140
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

I didn't bother hunting up a link to the study measuring objective trends in pop music because it was widely publicized in well-known sources like New Scientist.

Also, I knew full well that people so shameless as to claim it's all subjective and then still argue that there's progress would try something grossly ignorant, like trying to claim variety isn't a part of excellence.

Further, the objective facts of history show conclusively that whole generations have praised themselves, yet the test of time has decisively rejected them.

The inability (or refusal) to understand simple English may be useful to hide confused and incompetent thinking. But the fact is that mainly this is about indignation that old people don't appreciate the magnificence of the young. This is not an admirable thing.

And, skepticism is still opposed to materialism.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 12:23 PM   #141
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

Simple English, that alone makes merry with all else said.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 01:12 PM   #142
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

stj wrote: View Post
old people don't appreciate the magnificence of the young.
I think you got that backwards there, big'un.

Young people in general can't appreciate the "magnificence" of their elders, simply because they aren't there yet. There's a lot to be learned from even the simplest of your elders, just because they've lived longer and have probably seen a thing or two that you haven't.

That old saw "youth is wasted on the young" is pretty much right on the nose. Older people do appreciate youth, because they had it once. But once it's gone, it's gone. It ain't never coming back.

Disagreeing about popular culture is as old as the hills. It doesn't make us old folks wrong, and it don't make you whippersnappers right.

IMO, of course. YMMV. LSMFT. ROWYCO.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 01:54 PM   #143
jayceee
Commander
 
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
That old saw "youth is wasted on the young" is pretty much right on the nose.
Are there any cases where youth is not wasted on the young?

Possible cases could be a child prodigy who later got a Nobel Prize (for example).
jayceee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 01:58 PM   #144
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

Just don't waste whatever you have now, be it youth, middle age or decrepitude.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 02:02 PM   #145
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

teacake wrote: View Post
Just don't waste whatever you have now, be it youth, middle age or decrepitude.
Let's hear it for decrepitude.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 02:38 PM   #146
thestrangequark
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangequark's Avatar
 
Location: thestrangequark
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

stj wrote: View Post
I didn't bother hunting up a link to the study measuring objective trends in pop music because it was widely publicized in well-known sources like New Scientist.
Provide evidence or be dismissed.

Also, I knew full well that people so shameless as to claim it's all subjective and then still argue that there's progress would try something grossly ignorant, like trying to claim variety isn't a part of excellence.
You still think that's what I was arguing? I have made my position very clear: in art and music there is always crap and there's always great stuff. Which is which is subjective. This supports my case against the notion that civilization is in decline. In science and literacy, there is clear progress. That this same complaint has been voiced since the beginning of recorded history and we are yet to see the collapse of culture supports my case against the notion that civilization is in decline.

Further, the objective facts of history show conclusively that whole generations have praised themselves, yet the test of time has decisively rejected them.
Objective facts of history, as I noted in my very first post in this thread, show that people have been whining about the decline of cultural standards in the subsequent generation since ancient times. By doing so now you're just engaging in the same short-sighted and egotistic thought processes. This supports my case against the notion that civilization is in decline.

The inability (or refusal) to understand simple English may be useful to hide confused and incompetent thinking. But the fact is that mainly this is about indignation that old people don't appreciate the magnificence of the young. This is not an admirable thing.
Considering I've had to clarify my argument for you...is this the third time?... I don't think it's my ability to understand simple English that should be in question. I've never claimed that the young are exceptional, just that the notion that something is automatically better because it is older is stupid.

And, skepticism is still opposed to materialism.
Not if you're doing it right.
__________________
The Enterprise is my TARDIS.

View my art!
thestrangequark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 06:18 PM   #147
Kestrel
Vice Admiral
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Location: East Tennessee
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

stj wrote: View Post
...trying to claim variety isn't a part of excellence.
There's never been a greater variety of cultural expression easily available than there is now. On that basis alone we're pretty excellent.
__________________
"If Romeo had just masturbated a couple of times a week he would have saved both those nice families a heap of trouble."
Kestrel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 10:47 PM   #148
RandyS
Vice Admiral
 
RandyS's Avatar
 
Location: Randyland
View RandyS's Twitter Profile
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
old people don't appreciate the magnificence of the young.
I think you got that backwards there, big'un.

Young people in general can't appreciate the "magnificence" of their elders, simply because they aren't there yet. There's a lot to be learned from even the simplest of your elders, just because they've lived longer and have probably seen a thing or two that you haven't.

That old saw "youth is wasted on the young" is pretty much right on the nose. Older people do appreciate youth, because they had it once. But once it's gone, it's gone. It ain't never coming back.

Disagreeing about popular culture is as old as the hills. It doesn't make us old folks wrong, and it don't make you whippersnappers right.
I was going to post, but since you said more or less everything I was going to, let me just add: well said.
RandyS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 01:27 AM   #149
Kestra
Vice Admiral
 
Kestra's Avatar
 
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
old people don't appreciate the magnificence of the young.
I think you got that backwards there, big'un.

Young people in general can't appreciate the "magnificence" of their elders, simply because they aren't there yet. There's a lot to be learned from even the simplest of your elders, just because they've lived longer and have probably seen a thing or two that you haven't.

That old saw "youth is wasted on the young" is pretty much right on the nose. Older people do appreciate youth, because they had it once. But once it's gone, it's gone. It ain't never coming back.

Disagreeing about popular culture is as old as the hills. It doesn't make us old folks wrong, and it don't make you whippersnappers right.

IMO, of course. YMMV. LSMFT. ROWYCO.
I don't know why people in this thread are insisting on creating this generational divide. There are people half my age who have seen things I haven't, and people double my age who probably haven't experienced some of the things I have.
__________________
"You're not my type." --Manticore
Kestra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 03:34 PM   #150
thestrangequark
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangequark's Avatar
 
Location: thestrangequark
Re: Have cultural standards gotten lower?

^
__________________
The Enterprise is my TARDIS.

View my art!
thestrangequark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.