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Old May 28 2013, 02:22 PM   #76
iguana_tonante
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Location: Italy, EU
Re: death penalty

Lulz. I know you pride yourself on being dull and unfunny, but joking about one's country is not nationalism.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:48 PM   #77
BennieGamali
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Re: death penalty

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
BennieGamali wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post

I don't wish them harm. I just want the rest of us to be safe from them. A long prison sentence -- life, if need be -- serves that purpose. Not 100% of the time, but usually.
I don't care enough about random criminals to wish them harm either. But I wish they couldn't harm anyone else.
But if some [insert bad word] did something to my loved ones or myself, I am certain I would wish them harm. I even wish harm upon people who don't pick up their dogs poop. I wish the poop would magically move to the top of their head unless they picked it up.

But I don't think it's a good thing to want revenge. I just can't help wishing people were disciplined for the bad things they do.
Disciplined, yes, of course. Harmed, no. I was not just speaking hypothetically of random criminals. Someone is doing many years in prison for what he did to me. I wish him no harm; I just want him where he can't hurt anyone.
That is good. I wish I was like that.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:02 PM   #78
ichab
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Re: death penalty

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Right or wrong is immaterial. Sooner or later you WILL execute an innocent person and there can be no justification for that.
That has always been my big worry with it. I was once for it but the recent questionable executions in Texas and Georgia changed my opinion on it. Lock these scumbags away for life and make sure they never get out. That way the worse we've possibly done is jail an innocent man instead of killing him.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:19 PM   #79
MacLeod
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Re: death penalty

I'm sure that many of us have heard this quote from William Blackstone an English judge in the 18th century.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_Ratio

The actual numbers used are immaterial, it is about erring on the side of caution. Just in case a mistake has been made.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:57 PM   #80
stj
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Re: death penalty

I'm not quite sure where the thread can go. Practically no one who favors the death penalty does so for any reason other than the desire to kill people, and innocence doesn't diminish the pleasure one bit. The practical and moral arguments against it have been made effectively, yet the joy of state murder remains. The only novelty offered, the practical necessity for the death penalty in revolution, is unpleasant and undebated.

The ill-natured "joke" about Italian being awesome (that's a devastating satire on one's nation's pretensions!) was matched by my bilious jibe about Berlusconia. The only difference is I'm retroactively embarrassed by the crudity. And I'm sure my Italian grammar is much worse, though happily I'm aware of it. So, I don't feel too put upon. And I am aware that the real motive for the extraneous disdain is political animus. Disliking Lega Nord, especially for being lower class, is not leftwing, while disliking the Refoundation opposition or Proposta, assuming it hasn't blown up, is definitely politically conservative. Similarly, being anti-death penalty is not particularly left-wing. Prudence, commonly mislabeled a conservative virtue, in fact dictates the end of the death penalty.

The aside about the stupidity of liking the new BSG's characters was completely OT. Sorry.
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Old May 28 2013, 11:36 PM   #81
MacLeod
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Re: death penalty

^Perhaps, but outside of a desire for revenge. Have the pro-capital punishment side made a reasoned argument as to why it works. The anti-captial punishment has

1.>Captial Punishment doesn't act as a deterrent.
2.>You can free someone who is later found to be innocent, you can't bring them back to life if they've been executed.
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Old May 29 2013, 04:26 AM   #82
RobertVA
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Re: death penalty

Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.

While there are doubts the death penalty deters people who are not yet in prison, it certainly deters the condemed from killing prison staff and other inmates after the execution.

There's also the issue that offenders sentenced to life without the possibility parole don't have the risk of execution if they kill another inmate or a member of the prison staff.
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Old May 29 2013, 04:31 AM   #83
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: death penalty

Not only is the death penalty not a deterrent, it could even be an encouragement.

Meaning: If a criminal believes that what he or she is about to do, is a capital offense and they will be executed for it, they may decide to go out in a blaze of glory so to speak, in the assumption that they have nothing to lose.
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Old May 29 2013, 08:06 PM   #84
Mr Awe
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Re: death penalty

I don't have a problem with it ethically for criminals who are guilty of horrendous crimes as long as they get the full and fair due process, which is quite lengthy and expensives.

However, as a practical matter, I don't think it works to well. It's been shown to not be a deterant. It costs more and ties up more of the legal system. Plus, the stress it places on the jury can cause problems like we just saw in the Jodi Arias trial.

So, ethically, it's all right in some cases but practically not really worthwhile.

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Old May 29 2013, 08:10 PM   #85
iguana_tonante
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Re: death penalty

stj wrote: View Post
I'm not quite sure where the thread can go.
Agreed. Beside the OP, I don't think anyone here argued that the death penalty is moral, practical, or effective.

stj wrote: View Post
The ill-natured "joke" about Italian being awesome (that's a devastating satire on one's nation's pretensions!) was matched by my bilious jibe about Berlusconia. The only difference is I'm retroactively embarrassed by the crudity.
My "ill-natured joke", as you call it, was a response to the particularly bad taste of the topic, brought forth by another Italian. As I said, it was playful prancing, and if you read the original exchange, it was quite apparently so. But I guess humour is something that escapes you. If you prefer, I can offer a point-by-point discussion of why and how Italy sucks, completed with in-depth analysis of national politics, cultural context, and a number of personal anecdotes. I have no troubles harshly criticizing my country, just as I have no troubles telling a joke or two about it being awesome. I know it might come as a surprise to you, but not it's not mandatory to be dull and aggrieved all the time.

stj wrote: View Post
Disliking Lega Nord, especially for being lower class, is not leftwing
My dislike of Lega Nord has nothing to do with them being lower-class, and anything with them being xenophobes and arseholes.
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Old May 29 2013, 10:25 PM   #86
MacLeod
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Re: death penalty

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
I don't have a problem with it ethically for criminals who are guilty of horrendous crimes as long as they get the full and fair due process, which is quite lengthy and expensives.

However, as a practical matter, I don't think it works to well. It's been shown to not be a deterant. It costs more and ties up more of the legal system. Plus, the stress it places on the jury can cause problems like we just saw in the Jodi Arias trial.

So, ethically, it's all right in some cases but practically not really worthwhile.

Mr Awe
It can never be ethically right, sure some crimes can bring out the worst in us, i.e. That the perpetrator sould be executed, but that is our emotions talking.

But as has already been pointed out wrongful execution can occur. i.e a person who was found guilty but was later found to be innocent.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

No moral or ethically or in fact any argument can get around the fact that an innocent person could be found guilty even of a horrendous crime and executed only for it to be discovered later that they were innocent.

The question is how many innoncents are we willing to be executed?, the correct answer is of course none.

How would pro-capital punishment supporters feel if one of their loved ones was tried, found guilty, went through the appeals process, and was executed only for new evidence to turn up later proving their innocene. WOuld they still support the death penalty?
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Old May 29 2013, 10:32 PM   #87
CorporalCaptain
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Re: death penalty

What would those, who profess to accept execution of the innocent as the cost of justice, say if they themselves were the ones to be wrongfully executed? I guess most of them assume it would never, ever happen happen to them.
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Old May 29 2013, 11:44 PM   #88
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

RobertVA wrote: View Post
Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.
You have some pretty detailed opinions about how to manage a prison. I can't help wondering... Do you actually have experience working in corrections (as I do) and/or a degree in criminal justice, or have you just been watching a lot of TV?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Not only is the death penalty not a deterrent, it could even be an encouragement.

Meaning: If a criminal believes that what he or she is about to do, is a capital offense and they will be executed for it, they may decide to go out in a blaze of glory so to speak, in the assumption that they have nothing to lose.
A variation on "suicide by cop". That definitely happens.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:02 AM   #89
RobertVA
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Re: death penalty

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
RobertVA wrote: View Post
Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.
You have some pretty detailed opinions about how to manage a prison. I can't help wondering... Do you actually have experience working in corrections (as I do) and/or a degree in criminal justice, or have you just been watching a lot of TV?
They're called "Supermax" prisons

Some inmates are bad enough precautions need to be taken to protect other inmates and the prison staff. However, the way some facilities have put naked inmates in silent pitch black solitary confinement seems extreme.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:13 AM   #90
Alidar Jarok
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Re: death penalty

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
RobertVA wrote: View Post
Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.
You have some pretty detailed opinions about how to manage a prison. I can't help wondering... Do you actually have experience working in corrections (as I do) and/or a degree in criminal justice, or have you just been watching a lot of TV?
Of topic, but do you work at a jail in Baltimore? Do you want to comment on what happened in the city jail?

I know the jail there is pretty crappy overall due to many factors (including age of the building). On the other hand, the Arlington jail got four stars on Yelp
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