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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 29 2013, 03:53 AM   #31
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
BTW...I just rewatched Birthright Part II....Denise Crosby was brilliant in that. Her best work.
You mean Unification? She isn't in Birthright...
Redemption...I was too slow with the edit.
Gotcha.

I remember the preview of the graphics on Worf's console from Redemption II that was shown as part of the 25th Anniversary Special. I wore out my VHS tape of that special
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Old May 27 2013, 06:11 PM   #32
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Jellico was just looking for an excuse. Some people just can't get along and Jellico used Will's outburst as an excuse to dump him for the much more preferable Data.
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
All Jellico had to say was "Noted. Carry out my orders or I'll find someone who can" But he couldn't WAIT to get Data into the red shirt.
By the time he relieved Riker, he was well within his right to be considering other options for the sake of the mission, & pushing him into that outburst was needed sooner rather than later. He needed all the crew to be performing exactly as expected, especially the XO. Every second of that conflict made the mission more difficult to execute.

Every single thing that Jellico did was an absolute necessity of the mission, including telling Troi to get in uniform. How would it have looked to have someone not in uniform at these negotiations? So yeah, people had to do things they'd never been expected to do before, & put out more work than is healthy to do. If Picard had told everyone that they needed to work themselves to exhaustion for the next 2 or 3 days, they'd do it without question, but Picard had years to build a relationship that fosters that kind of trust. Jellico needed that level of performance & loyalty, but knew he had done nothing to earn it.

By all accounts, the person with the hardest job of all is Jellico. He would have to have known that going in. I maintain that we never truly know what Jellico's traditional "Command Style" is. We may not even have gotten a true representation of what kind of person he is. He was playing the captain part he was required to play from the minute he beamed aboard. This captaincy, at this time, on this ship, for this mission, required him to do things that even he may never have had to do before, in a way that was absolutely necessary, & perhaps not entirely how he'd prefer to do it.

Certainly, a man who keeps his kid's artwork in his office is not a completely unreasonable hardass. Much like Picard was given no choice, neither was Jellico. He knew he'd be taking over a ship that was not outfitted properly for the task, a crew that would have no faith in him whatsoever, and a timetable that was nearly impossible. He had to know resistance was coming. If he had time, maybe he could have cooperated with them to reduce it, but he did not.

All he had at his disposal was that he's the man in charge. He was handed the uniform of an asshole & told to wear it, and get the job done posthaste, & he did. He told them it was an honor to have served with them, & it sounded like he meant it. I even felt a bit of regret in his voice, in that he never got to be the man he'd want to be with them. A sacrifice for the mission, that might follow him if he ever has to work with any of them again.

He knows they were being asked the impossible. He was too, & all of them succeeded when the chips were down. Remember when he told Troi that he wanted Lamec to think he was an unreasonable man? He needed - e v e r y b o d y - to think he was an unreasonable man. It was the only way to get the job done, but realistically, no one could have gotten to his level of command in Starfleet without being reasonable.

But we never get to see that side of him. I bet the people on the Cairo have a completely different impression of him.
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Old May 28 2013, 12:19 AM   #33
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Captain Jelico was just trying to get control of the Stargate.

Err...

Captain Jelico strikes me as a military thinker for an anti-military military. He came off as far worse in 1993 than he does now, and comes off as frankly tame compared to any recent scifi captain. Heck, NuKirk acted just like Jelico in ID.
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Old May 28 2013, 06:25 PM   #34
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

During Picard's reign, the Enterprise was mostly running peaceful exploratory missions. Now you're in a pre-war scenario and there's a ton at stake. Jellico had to get the shipping running like a military warship, rather than a science or diplomatic vessel. Riker wasn't used to that. Maybe he'd gotten a bit fat on his laurels.

I didn't like the character Jellico, but I appreciated what he was trying to do. This wasn't an "at ease" scenario... everybody had to be pushing 120%. Who knows, perhaps once the conflict was over, Jellico would've showed a warmer and more congenial side. In any case, I was seriously relieved once Picard resumed command.

I was also disappointed in Riker. He definitely revealed a side that was not flattering. Stewart's acting in that episode was epic. Even down to his reaction to Riker's struggle with Jellico.
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Old May 28 2013, 09:05 PM   #35
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
By the time he relieved Riker, he was well within his right to be considering other options for the sake of the mission, & pushing him into that outburst was needed sooner rather than later. He needed all the crew to be performing exactly as expected, especially the XO. Every second of that conflict made the mission more difficult to execute.

Every single thing that Jellico did was an absolute necessity of the mission, including telling Troi to get in uniform. How would it have looked to have someone not in uniform at these negotiations? So yeah, people had to do things they'd never been expected to do before, & put out more work than is healthy to do. If Picard had told everyone that they needed to work themselves to exhaustion for the next 2 or 3 days, they'd do it without question, but Picard had years to build a relationship that fosters that kind of trust. Jellico needed that level of performance & loyalty, but knew he had done nothing to earn it.

By all accounts, the person with the hardest job of all is Jellico. He would have to have known that going in. I maintain that we never truly know what Jellico's traditional "Command Style" is. We may not even have gotten a true representation of what kind of person he is. He was playing the captain part he was required to play from the minute he beamed aboard. This captaincy, at this time, on this ship, for this mission, required him to do things that even he may never have had to do before, in a way that was absolutely necessary, & perhaps not entirely how he'd prefer to do it.

Certainly, a man who keeps his kid's artwork in his office is not a completely unreasonable hardass. Much like Picard was given no choice, neither was Jellico. He knew he'd be taking over a ship that was not outfitted properly for the task, a crew that would have no faith in him whatsoever, and a timetable that was nearly impossible. He had to know resistance was coming. If he had time, maybe he could have cooperated with them to reduce it, but he did not.

All he had at his disposal was that he's the man in charge. He was handed the uniform of an asshole & told to wear it, and get the job done posthaste, & he did. He told them it was an honor to have served with them, & it sounded like he meant it. I even felt a bit of regret in his voice, in that he never got to be the man he'd want to be with them. A sacrifice for the mission, that might follow him if he ever has to work with any of them again.

He knows they were being asked the impossible. He was too, & all of them succeeded when the chips were down. Remember when he told Troi that he wanted Lamec to think he was an unreasonable man? He needed - e v e r y b o d y - to think he was an unreasonable man. It was the only way to get the job done, but realistically, no one could have gotten to his level of command in Starfleet without being reasonable.

But we never get to see that side of him. I bet the people on the Cairo have a completely different impression of him.

Very well put.
Gary7 wrote: View Post
During Picard's reign, the Enterprise was mostly running peaceful exploratory missions. Now you're in a pre-war scenario and there's a ton at stake. Jellico had to get the shipping running like a military warship, rather than a science or diplomatic vessel. Riker wasn't used to that. Maybe he'd gotten a bit fat on his laurels.

I didn't like the character Jellico, but I appreciated what he was trying to do. This wasn't an "at ease" scenario... everybody had to be pushing 120%. Who knows, perhaps once the conflict was over, Jellico would've showed a warmer and more congenial side. In any case, I was seriously relieved once Picard resumed command.

I was also disappointed in Riker. He definitely revealed a side that was not flattering. Stewart's acting in that episode was epic. Even down to his reaction to Riker's struggle with Jellico.
That really is a problem for Riker, what would he have done if his new post as captain of another ship his xo starts acting that way? Or was it Riker too jealous that he was passed over for command of Enterprise? I sometimes think he was waiting for Picard to die/retire to get the Enterprise for himself.
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Old May 28 2013, 09:14 PM   #36
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Gary7 wrote: View Post
During Picard's reign, the Enterprise was mostly running peaceful exploratory missions. Now you're in a pre-war scenario and there's a ton at stake. Jellico had to get the shipping running like a military warship, rather than a science or diplomatic vessel. Riker wasn't used to that. Maybe he'd gotten a bit fat on his laurels.
I'm never too kind to Riker for a multitude of reasons, but I'd be willing to come to his defense here. The man successfully engaged the Borg. He had to have been around during the Cardassian war. Even though he probably wasn't the best candidate to handle this negotiation, I'm still willing to say he'd be up to handling being on board a war time vessel

His problem was that the new captain offered no professional courtesy to him beyond the 30 second introduction. Riker, just like everybody else, had to just shut up & deliver the demands of the mission on a nearly impossible scale, with very little input, & absolutely no excuses. Ultimately, THAT is what he's not use to. He had grown to expect that his input was not only welcomed, but preordained. It is not, certainly not when the mission is laid out in absolute specific detail. It was a hard pill for him to swallow

His mistake was that he assumed that this was all due to Jellico's way of doing things & not perhaps a prerequisite of the mission itself. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Jellico & perhaps with Starfleet's knowledge believed that this was the only way the mission could be done, right down to inevitably ruffling feathers on board the Enterprise

It's insane to think that he'd be the kind of hardass that forced every order throughout his entire career. Who could work like that? This circumstance is a unique situation with very little wiggle room, & being a jerk was the hand he was dealt

Riker, & everybody else for that matter, never stopped to consider that. They just assumed Jellico was unreasonable, just like Lemec assumed he was unreasonable. "Unreasonable" was his mission objective. It was the only way to make this work, & it did
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Old May 29 2013, 01:43 AM   #37
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Opus wrote: View Post
Jellico was a dick.

But, he was a dick who was also in command of the Enterprise.

Jellico was right, and Riker was not. Yes, Riker dressed him down off the record quite well. But he was still wrong for not following orders and implementing Jellico's directives.
I think an XO who won't let the crew be pushed beyond their limits is better than an XO who will just blindly follow the captain's orders.
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Old May 29 2013, 04:22 AM   #38
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Jellico didn't push anyone beyond their limits. He pushed them beyond their comfort zone. As was later seen when Data explains to Geordi exactly how the captain's orders could be met

Many times during Picard's command, the crew needed to work extra hours, & achieve what seemed nearly impossible. They were willing to go that length for Picard because they trusted him from having built a relationship with him. Jellico had to demand that level of performance even though he had not yet had that opportunity. He had to just expect that it was "Starfleet's Finest Crew" & therefore they owed him that much, because they owe it to Starfleet, especially with the safety of the Federation on the line.

Riker was wrong in that he believed himself to be too important to be just a piece of the mission, instead of one of it's architects, who had a say in what should be happening. He succumb to hubris. (Not the 1st time for him, btw) He needed to be thinking his way through the difficulty & looking at it from all perspectives, instead of just becoming resistant

Excerpt From Ensigns of Command
PICARD: How are we progressing, Mister LaForge?

GEORDI: About like you'd expect. (Not at all)

PICARD: Splendid. (Do it anyway)

Picard EXITS.

WESLEY: He wants the impossible.

GEORDI: That's the short definition for "captain."
Odd that he forgets that being the case, when the captain isn't Picard. They worked their asses off in that episode, & no one bitched to the point of being relieved
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Old May 29 2013, 05:58 AM   #39
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Still that's one thing. Expecting the crew to work themselves to exhaustion immediately before entering a potent armed conflict with a bunch of Cardassians is another thing entirely.

Also add to the fact that Jellico expected the crew to make an awkward change to a four shift rotation instead of three just because he felt like it, even when Riker tried to explain why it wasn't a good idea.
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Old May 29 2013, 10:29 AM   #40
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Still that's one thing. Expecting the crew to work themselves to exhaustion immediately before entering a potent armed conflict with a bunch of Cardassians is another thing entirely.
There was the likelihood of an armed conflict with the Sheliak. That didn't stop Picard from working people to exhaustion. What's necessary is necessary

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Also add to the fact that Jellico expected the crew to make an awkward change to a four shift rotation instead of three just because he felt like it, even when Riker tried to explain why it wasn't a good idea.
It's never stated that the reason he changed the shift rotation is solely due to personal preference. It's also clear that Riker hasn't been told everything about the mission specifics. Bottom line is that the captain is in charge despite objection, & he's privy to info that his subordinates don't have

Riker objects without really explaining anything, except that dept. heads think it will be difficult. When Data is XO he explains that even though things will be difficult, they can be done. Jellico's response is to tell them do the difficult thing. He knows. Nothing about this mission was going to be less than difficult, & it's presumptuous to think it's all because of Jellico's personal preference. Nobody knows that
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Old May 30 2013, 04:13 PM   #41
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
I posted this on another thread, but this one's relevant so I'll put it here too:

I always thought Jellico wasn't that bad of a guy. Every time he was introduced to someone in that episode he was cordial to them for example. His command style definitely was "his way or the highway" and he was a micro manager. That's not bad, it's just different. Especially when everyone's been serving under Picard who basically gives his people all the leeway in the world so long as the job gets done.

Jellico to me seemed to put the mission before the people. Which is a very military attitude. To him they were facing the prospect of war if things went wrong. Jellico said as much to Picard and Troi. It wasn't that he didn't care about the people under his command, but he couldn't baby them at the expense of the mission. To Riker, Jellico was willing to sacrifice Picard to further the mission. He wasn't wrong. To Jellico, Picard is a small thing compared to the prospect of preventing a war, which was his mission.

Riker was insubordinate to Jellico and was increasingly so as things progressed. Jellico felt that was a danger to the mission having someone he couldn't rely upon in a critical position. So yes, when Riker crossed the line, he's relieved and Data's in the red shirt. Frankly Riker wasn't very professional in the episode at all. To me the scene between Geordi and Jellico in the shuttle was very telling. Not only did it demonstrate Jellico did attempt to bond with his people when given the chance, but that he'll put the mission ahead of personal concerns.

He did drop his pride when he asked Riker to pilot the mission. Why? His pride is a small thing to the success of the mission. I think he "dropped the ranks" and ripped into Riker, just to give Riker the chance to get all the nasty things he wanted to say to Jellico off his chest, so he'd perform the mission all the better. To say nothing about once the mission was a success and Jellico had the upper hand, he immediately demanded Picard's return. So you really can't say he didn't care about the people under his command, even if he didn't have time to pamper them so to say.

I suppose I ranted a bit on this, but he is one of my favorite characters and really did shake things up nicely on the TNG set. To me, Jellico was the professional, get the mission done, no matter the cost type of man. Just the sort of person you'd want on a high stakes mission where the threat of war is imminent. His style was different, and admittedly overbearing, but that doesn't mean it was wrong.
I think this is the best analysis of the Jellico command in this thread. The only exception I take with this is that I don't believe that Jellico necesarilly placed the mission ahead of the people. I think he simply expected people do their jobs and trusted them to take care of themselves. He never deliberately played fast and loose with anybody's lives in this episode. He expected Picard and Crusher to take care of themselves and when he finally did get the opportunity to secure their release he was very forceful with the Cardassians about getting them back safely.

I've also never bought into the whole premise that the XO is supposed to serve as this backup conscience to the CAPT. An XO is designed to simply execute the commanding officers intent and also serve as a chief of staff to the crew departments. Riker offering up opinions is all well and good but at the end of the day you have to do your job and execute the CO's wishes once the decision has been made.
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Old May 30 2013, 09:47 PM   #42
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
I've also never bought into the whole premise that the XO is supposed to serve as this backup conscience to the CAPT. An XO is designed to simply execute the commanding officers intent and also serve as a chief of staff to the crew departments. Riker offering up opinions is all well and good but at the end of the day you have to do your job and execute the CO's wishes once the decision has been made.
Exactly. Well said

The bottom line is that there's only two officers who have the right to tell a captain he's wrong, beyond making their suggestions or objections & having them noted, the XO & the CMO, & there's only 2 circumstances when they are allowed to do that. The CMO can remove the captain if he's not medically fit to be captain, & the XO can remove him if he has shown signs that his actions will cause reckless endangerment of the crew, ship or mission, thus making him an unfit captain

Jellico showed no signs at all of being an unfit captain. Therefore, challenging his authority in the way Riker was is grounds for being relieved, & Riker's sense of self importance in expecting that he gets a say in the decisions the captain makes is no excuse. Frankly, Picard only gives him that liberty, because he is in a long term assignment with Riker & it helps to have not only a solid working relationship with his officers, but it doesn't hurt to have a few varied perspectives to draw upon, & opening up the crew to suggestions gets that

Perhaps in a long term situation, Jellico would begin doing the same, but in this mission, suggestions were not required. The decisions had all been made, very likely before the man even stepped aboard. Suck it up & follow orders. You don't have to like it. You don't even have to think it's fair. Hell, life & death situations rarely are, but you do have to respect the chain of command. They don't call it a chain because it looks good with a locket on it.
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Old May 30 2013, 10:43 PM   #43
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

How would it have looked to have someone not in uniform at these negotiations?
Downright insulting, I'd think. Which is why I seriously wonder why Jellico insisted on the uniform...

Really, he should have asked for Guinan to join in, wearing her most outrageous hat while bringing drinks and chitchatting with the CO on what to do with these lizard men and their silly demands. The bartender could have launched into a story about her uncle, too.

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Old May 31 2013, 02:59 AM   #44
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Actually, I'd think it would be more a sign of military weakness, some civilian dressed eye candy as an aid.
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Old June 1 2013, 06:44 PM   #45
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
By the time he relieved Riker, he was well within his right to be considering other options for the sake of the mission
...
Picard himself went through a few chief engineers before settling on the one he wanted.

Marsden wrote: View Post
Or was it Riker too jealous that he was passed over for command of Enterprise? I sometimes think he was waiting for Picard to die/retire to get the Enterprise for himself.
That's something I hadn't considered, that Riker problem with Jellico stemmed to a large degree from Riker not being given command of the Enterprise in Picard absence.

Riker had to know that his previously upwardly mobile career was stalling, here he was the bright eyed boy who was offered one command after another, but when the command that he really wanted opened up, he was passed over in favor of someone else..

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