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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 28 2013, 07:12 PM   #136
marksound
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Re: Why did they bother...

Side note: I don't think that's supposed to be Elmer Fudd. The cartoon All This and Rabbit Stew featuring that character was released in September 1941, after Elmer Fudd made his official debut in 1940 in Elmer's Candid Camera.

A Fudd-like character called Egghead had been introduced by Tex Avery as early as 1937, voiced by Danny Webb and later Arthur Q. Bryan. Many historians believe it was this character that evolved into Elmer Fudd, as both Egghead and Fudd were voiced by Bryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da...nd_Egghead.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElmersCamera.jpg
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Old May 28 2013, 09:19 PM   #137
CorporalClegg
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Re: Why did they bother...

This is an icon:





Those are four distinctly different faces presumably from four different actors/models. Yet show any one those pictures to anyone, anywhere and he or she is going to immediately know who it is.

The second is probably the most ubiquitously familiar; that does not make him the most iconic.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I bought a friend of mine a TOS cast t-shirt because he loved TNG. Loving my gift he took it away on a holiday to climb the Himalayas where he would be camping and staying in huts without running water and electricity.
He came back and he told me that he was amazed how many people recognised the people on the shirt. In places without TV or movie theatres where they didn't speak English, people would come up to him and say 'Kirk', 'Spock'.
So you claim they're not icons but a lot of people around the world recognise them.
Aside from being an anecdote and thus proof of nothing, this gives no indication of how many people walked by who had no idea who they were.

Non the less, note they said "Kirk" and "Spock" not "Shatner!" "Nimoy!"

Dollars to donuts, your friend could paste Pine and Quinto's faces onto said shirt and get a similar reaction.

Also, I wonder if, had you given your friend with a picture of Shatner and Nimoy drinking cocktails while wearing 70s leisure suits, he would have garnered the same level of attention?


TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Poor examples. As cartoon and comic book characters, respectively, Mickey and Superman were subjected to numerous changes in their early years--there was no hardline, established look in the way the right actor immediately shapes a role with traits that are not always born of the screenwriter's pen. The Superman of Action Comics #1 was already altered by the time AC#6 or 7, where the "S" chest emblem took on a new look, alternated outline colors, along with the color of his cape emblem.
Here's a challenge:

Take stills from the Fleischer cartoon and MoS and walk around public asking "Which one's Superman?"

Good grief...

It is the actor's lightning-in-a-bottle shaping of a character which makes a cultural icon. They are not pick n'n swap parts like that found in so many reimagining/reboots to follow. The very reason the nuTrek actors--with all the money and marketing in the world--are not in the same position, two movies in.
Can you even define "icon?"
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Old May 28 2013, 09:26 PM   #138
Belz...
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Re: Why did they bother...

Can you even define "icon?"
A person or thing of international renown or recognition ?
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Old May 28 2013, 09:30 PM   #139
Greg Cox
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Re: Why did they bother...

I do think the word "icon" tends to get thrown around pretty loosely these days. Back when I used to lurk on comic book boards, it was not uncommon to see Martian Manhunter or Blue Beetle described as "iconic" by hardcore comics fans . . . which is probably pushing things a little.

If I had my way, the words "canon" and "iconic" would be expunged from the internet.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:01 PM   #140
CorporalClegg
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Re: Why did they bother...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
If I had my way, the words "canon" and "iconic" would be expunged from the internet.
I wholeheartedly agree.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:03 PM   #141
sj4iy
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Re: Why did they bother...

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Side note: I don't think that's supposed to be Elmer Fudd. The cartoon All This and Rabbit Stew featuring that character was released in September 1941, after Elmer Fudd made his official debut in 1940 in Elmer's Candid Camera.

A Fudd-like character called Egghead had been introduced by Tex Avery as early as 1937, voiced by Danny Webb and later Arthur Q. Bryan. Many historians believe it was this character that evolved into Elmer Fudd, as both Egghead and Fudd were voiced by Bryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da...nd_Egghead.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElmersCamera.jpg
They redrew the black hunter into the Elmer Fudd we know today because of the racial implications.

http://aaea-la.blogspot.com/2007/09/...lly-black.html
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Old May 28 2013, 10:11 PM   #142
M'Sharak
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Re: Why did they bother...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post

If I had my way, the words "canon" and "iconic" would be expunged from the internet.
I'll add those to the list.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:13 PM   #143
sj4iy
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Re: Why did they bother...

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
About 20 years ago (or more) I bought a friend of mine a TOS cast t-shirt because he loved TNG. Loving my gift he took it away on a holiday to climb the Himalayas where he would be camping and staying in huts without running water and electricity.
He came back and he told me that he was amazed how many people recognised the people on the shirt. In places without TV or movie theatres where they didn't speak English, people would come up to him and say 'Kirk', 'Spock'.
So you claim they're not icons but a lot of people around the world recognise them.
Ever since My So-Called Life came on in the 90s, I have been told by almost every stranger I meet that I looked like Claire Danes (I do have an uncanny resemblance to her- this poster picture could easily be me). When lived in Japan 10 years ago, even Japanese people would tell me that I looked like her, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't an iconic character in anything as popular as Star Trek. The actors are not the icons...the characters are. I bet that if you showed those same people a poster from the new Star Trek, they would still say that those characters were Kirk and Spock.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:29 PM   #144
marksound
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Re: Why did they bother...

sj4iy wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Side note: I don't think that's supposed to be Elmer Fudd. The cartoon All This and Rabbit Stew featuring that character was released in September 1941, after Elmer Fudd made his official debut in 1940 in Elmer's Candid Camera.

A Fudd-like character called Egghead had been introduced by Tex Avery as early as 1937, voiced by Danny Webb and later Arthur Q. Bryan. Many historians believe it was this character that evolved into Elmer Fudd, as both Egghead and Fudd were voiced by Bryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da...nd_Egghead.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElmersCamera.jpg
They redrew the black hunter into the Elmer Fudd we know today because of the racial implications.

http://aaea-la.blogspot.com/2007/09/...lly-black.html
Yeah, I read the whole article that guy quoted. His assertion isn't in there.

Elmer Fudd = 1940
Black Hunter Guy = 1941

Bugs Bunny was not originally black.
A Wild Hare, directed by Tex Avery and released on July 27, 1940, is widely considered to be the first official Bugs Bunny cartoon.[3] It is the first short where both Elmer Fudd and Bugs are shown in their fully developed forms as hunter and tormentor, respectively; the first in which Mel Blanc uses what would become Bugs' standard voice; and the first in which Bugs uses his catchphrase, "What's up, Doc?"[10] The short was a huge success in theaters and received an Academy Award nomination for Best Animated Short Film.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FirstBugs.jpg

I don't know what that guy's agenda is, but he seems to have his facts a little mixed up.

I'd be happy to discuss further via PM.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:56 PM   #145
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why did they bother...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
If I had my way, the words "canon" and "iconic" would be expunged from the internet.
We should combine the two to create a new evil. Iconon? Icanonic?
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Old May 28 2013, 11:03 PM   #146
OpenMaw
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
If I had my way, the words "canon" and "iconic" would be expunged from the internet.
We should combine the two to create a new evil. Iconon? Icanonic?
Iconian.
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Old May 28 2013, 11:46 PM   #147
sj4iy
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Re: Why did they bother...

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
sj4iy wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Side note: I don't think that's supposed to be Elmer Fudd. The cartoon All This and Rabbit Stew featuring that character was released in September 1941, after Elmer Fudd made his official debut in 1940 in Elmer's Candid Camera.

A Fudd-like character called Egghead had been introduced by Tex Avery as early as 1937, voiced by Danny Webb and later Arthur Q. Bryan. Many historians believe it was this character that evolved into Elmer Fudd, as both Egghead and Fudd were voiced by Bryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da...nd_Egghead.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElmersCamera.jpg
They redrew the black hunter into the Elmer Fudd we know today because of the racial implications.

http://aaea-la.blogspot.com/2007/09/...lly-black.html
Yeah, I read the whole article that guy quoted. His assertion isn't in there.

Elmer Fudd = 1940
Black Hunter Guy = 1941

Bugs Bunny was not originally black.
A Wild Hare, directed by Tex Avery and released on July 27, 1940, is widely considered to be the first official Bugs Bunny cartoon.[3] It is the first short where both Elmer Fudd and Bugs are shown in their fully developed forms as hunter and tormentor, respectively; the first in which Mel Blanc uses what would become Bugs' standard voice; and the first in which Bugs uses his catchphrase, "What's up, Doc?"[10] The short was a huge success in theaters and received an Academy Award nomination for Best Animated Short Film.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FirstBugs.jpg

I don't know what that guy's agenda is, but he seems to have his facts a little mixed up.

I'd be happy to discuss further via PM.
Wish I could, but I can't yet. Anyway, just wanted to say that the original Elmer Fudd in 1940 and in another cartoon in 1941 wasn't remotely anything like the hunter. I guess the better explanation is that they merged the two because they wanted the hunter character that wasn't offensive (the director Tex Avery left the studio before the cartoon was even aired).

One definite element that was remade into an Elmer Fudd cartoon was the log scene over a cliff. It appeared in All That and Rabbit Stew and then was reanimated into the 1946 cartoon The Big Snooze. {SOURCE}
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Old May 29 2013, 12:38 AM   #148
trevanian
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Re: Why did they bother...

sj4iy wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
About 20 years ago (or more) I bought a friend of mine a TOS cast t-shirt because he loved TNG. Loving my gift he took it away on a holiday to climb the Himalayas where he would be camping and staying in huts without running water and electricity.
He came back and he told me that he was amazed how many people recognised the people on the shirt. In places without TV or movie theatres where they didn't speak English, people would come up to him and say 'Kirk', 'Spock'.
So you claim they're not icons but a lot of people around the world recognise them.
Ever since My So-Called Life came on in the 90s, I have been told by almost every stranger I meet that I looked like Claire Danes (I do have an uncanny resemblance to her- this poster picture could easily be me). When lived in Japan 10 years ago, even Japanese people would tell me that I looked like her, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't an iconic character in anything as popular as Star Trek. The actors are not the icons...the characters are. I bet that if you showed those same people a poster from the new Star Trek, they would still say that those characters were Kirk and Spock.
If they were in the yellow and blue shirts, yeah. But if you show them a picture of these guys doing the DRESS GREY thing, a decent guess would be 'is that STARSHIP TROOPERS?'
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Old May 29 2013, 12:52 AM   #149
trevanian
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Re: Why did they bother...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Remember: Post, not poster.)
What you say here, of course, is perfectly reasonable. Ad Hominem attacks are, generally, bad form in argument. You have successfully identified and warned about the use of an informal fallacy.

No, we don't have to call this "ad hominem," but this is the appropriate label. Sure would be odd for someone to outlaw using this term. It would almost seem like an attack on reason itself to outlaw reference to words which point out common errors in reasoning, wouldn't it?
You're lecturing again.
Something wrong with his asking for clarification?

This is at least the second poster in the last week that you seem to have gone after -- and yes, I'm using that phrase very deliberately this time, after our PMs on the last one -- when they're really only guilty of being articulate while stating a position that goes against the popular view.

All the while allowing to pass w/o comment most of the snipes and unsupported declarations of dismissal from the other side, just as this board has done for well over a decade now.

Is there really some payoff -- no, let me use the word gain -- from actively attempting to decrease the level of intelligent discourse here?
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Old May 29 2013, 01:13 AM   #150
sj4iy
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Re: Why did they bother...

trevanian wrote: View Post
sj4iy wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
About 20 years ago (or more) I bought a friend of mine a TOS cast t-shirt because he loved TNG. Loving my gift he took it away on a holiday to climb the Himalayas where he would be camping and staying in huts without running water and electricity.
He came back and he told me that he was amazed how many people recognised the people on the shirt. In places without TV or movie theatres where they didn't speak English, people would come up to him and say 'Kirk', 'Spock'.
So you claim they're not icons but a lot of people around the world recognise them.
Ever since My So-Called Life came on in the 90s, I have been told by almost every stranger I meet that I looked like Claire Danes (I do have an uncanny resemblance to her- this poster picture could easily be me). When lived in Japan 10 years ago, even Japanese people would tell me that I looked like her, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't an iconic character in anything as popular as Star Trek. The actors are not the icons...the characters are. I bet that if you showed those same people a poster from the new Star Trek, they would still say that those characters were Kirk and Spock.
If they were in the yellow and blue shirts, yeah. But if you show them a picture of these guys doing the DRESS GREY thing, a decent guess would be 'is that STARSHIP TROOPERS?'
Yes, because these:





..are nowhere near as dressy and practical as these original goofy-looking dress uniforms:






If you show them a picture of the characters in the yellow-blue-red uniforms, people will recognize them instantly. They updated the dress uniforms (which they hardly ever wear in TOS series, anyway) from something comedic to classy and professional. The "iconic" uniforms are still there, and still recognizable.
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