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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 26 2013, 04:49 AM   #436
Third Nacelle
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

^He looks like a little Jem'Hadar!
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Old May 26 2013, 04:55 AM   #437
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

That looks like the bearded dragons we have here.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:18 AM   #438
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

To be clear, I have watched the show through the first 5 seasons since 2010, and I came away unsatisfied, feeling it was a waste of time to watch the show. DS9, by comparison, has aged well, as has TNG.

My complaints with the series begin with how it was started. If Voyager was a mission that reflected our needs in man-space-travel outside of the solar system (right now), where we had the infrastructure to grow our own food, raise and train our replacements, find a perpetual energy source, and did this by telling stories over the course of their mission (years, not just the first seven), I think the show would've avoided the TNG label and it would've been the same blank palate that the show wanted by going to the Delta Quadrant. Why would we sign up for such a mission? Because we are explorers. I think it would've been great if they had an engine to get to the Delta Quardrant, but not one that could get us back.

Even if they didn't do that, there's a lot of unexplored territory with the Maquis-Starfleet conflict. This is where the show could've shined. Having two different agendas would've been great for a post-DS9 show. But alas, it played for a season or two and was gone, and when it did play, it was more like two squabbling children, than the gravitas of two intelligent competing arguments. I think they didn't go dark enough with how the Maquis officers would want to start their own colony, etc.

My major complaint with Voyager is this--they did original stories. But their iconic moments were based on dealing with races we already met--especially the Borg. It was pop-culture Trek that relied on too many old faces. DS9 had "The Dominion," and gave relevance and re-defined the Cardassians, Ferengi, and the Bajorans. TNG had "The Borg." And even during the run of TNG, there were plenty of alien-of-the-week stories that stood on their own. Seven of Nine and Icheb, Seska is a Cardassian, etc all relied on knowledge of the Trek that had come before it. Like I said, Pop-culture Trek where they used what was popular, and never did anything that made me think "I understand the Cardassians better because of Seska," or "I understand the Borg better because of Seven of Nine." It was unoriginal during most of its run, and that made it a bland version that's not worth remembering.

The actors performances of the material was also bland. The Doctor and Kes aside, most others were not giving performances that were memorable in a good way, that caused me to have an emotional connection to the characters. I think Kate Mulgrew overplayed a lot of her scenes. I think she was a stereotype of a 90s woman in that role, as it was still new to have a woman leader. 20 years later, her performances look horrible. I think Robert Picardo is the only exception to what I am saying here.

I think the show had a lot of promise, and didn't do anything with the characters. They lacked intelligence and gravitas that the TNG characters had. Like it or hate it, you believed the the TNG crew was this moral. There's something disingenuous and preachy about Voyager that I never liked.

That's where it lost me. I don't know about any others.
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Old May 26 2013, 01:10 PM   #439
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

^^^DS9 Cardassians are Space Nazis. If that's your idea of enrichment, your judgment is suspect.

And, of course, the insistence that there are untapped depths in the Maquis critique of rancid Federation humanitarianism just tells us something about you, not the series. The Maquis wanted war, not a colony.
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Old May 26 2013, 06:28 PM   #440
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I had the time to watch a couple of episodes, and geez, they are really wasting screen time with extremely painful to watch Seven of Nine explores humanity shit. It's not the idea that she explores humanity, it's how the writers let her do it. Holy shit.
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Old May 26 2013, 06:57 PM   #441
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I had the time to watch a couple of episodes, and geez, they are really wasting screen time with extremely painful to watch Seven of Nine explores humanity shit. It's not the idea that she explores humanity, it's how the writers let her do it. Holy shit.
Seven sometimes seems to me like a child in a very dysfunctional family who has to raise herself. And I think she does a pretty good job with the resources available to her. A starship stranded on the other side of the galaxy with a mentally ill captain and a holographic doctor as your mentors is just not the best scenario for becoming human.
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Old May 26 2013, 07:31 PM   #442
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

A hologram whose personality was programmed by Reg Barclay.
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Old May 28 2013, 06:29 PM   #443
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Again, I think that if they'd given the show an actual plot beyond "Lost ship" there'd be more for the writers to work with.

And the second crew should have been Romulans, instead of the Maquis. Genuine enemies.
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Old May 28 2013, 08:17 PM   #444
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

It would have been nice if the show didn't end when the ship returned to the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe if they had 6 or 7 episodes (or even a full season) of encountering Cardassians, Romulans, Andorians, etc., that would be a welcome surprise. A friend of mine years ago said that this was his major beef with the show: you knew that Voyager was never going to return to the Alpha Quadrant until the end of the show, so all of the efforts they were making to get there would ultimately fail, until the very end.
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Old May 29 2013, 04:58 PM   #445
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
It would have been nice if the show didn't end when the ship returned to the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe if they had 6 or 7 episodes (or even a full season) of encountering Cardassians, Romulans, Andorians, etc., that would be a welcome surprise. A friend of mine years ago said that this was his major beef with the show: you knew that Voyager was never going to return to the Alpha Quadrant until the end of the show, so all of the efforts they were making to get there would ultimately fail, until the very end.
Exactly, it's Gilligan Syndrome.

If they'd given them a plot that could be accomplished WITHOUT ending the show, then there's something more interesting.
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Old May 30 2013, 12:11 AM   #446
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Harry had to fall in love.

Unfortunately week after week, his lovelife went tits up.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:41 AM   #447
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Harry had to fall in love.

Unfortunately week after week, his lovelife went tits up.
Too bad they didn't come up with Lindsey Ballard until late in the show and were determined to screw Harry over.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:56 AM   #448
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

What do you mean?

She was there since the pilot.

They wouldn't just "invent" new characters half way through the show, and then pretend that they had been cleaning conduits out of camera shot for the past three years.

What you are suggesting is cheap and reprehensible!
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Old May 30 2013, 01:29 PM   #449
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Ashes to Ashes was not a Kim episode. It was about the reality of death. Kim was just there to dramatize that the best you can hope for in the end is to say goodbye. And Mezoti showed up at the end because the young always continue to live their lives after others die. No doubt they would have preferred Paris to have been the lover but he was taken by Torres. The only unattached male of the right species was Kim.

And I strongly suspect they wrote a new dead character because they didn't want to call back a glorified extra. The thing is, it doesn't matter if Ballard was previously obscure because in truth many lives go unnoticed and unremarked and only after they are gone do we (sometimes) notice we've lost something.

The key scene in Ashes to Ashes is when Janeway cannot justify her decision to the dead. This is true for all military commanders whose soldiers die following their orders. The implicit lesson? It's left for you to draw.

A fair amount of Voyager is this kind of story. The insistence on some sort of survivalist epic crossed with a right-wing critique of humanitarianism is just irrelevant to what was on screen. It's like people keep watching the insides of their foreheads.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:44 PM   #450
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I figured out deductively recently that Ashes to Ashes was probably a rejected "Return of Kes" episode that got tabled at some point in the process after they started thinking about bring Lien back.

If so, then this story was supposed to be about Neelix and Kes having one last booty call.
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