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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: 'Who' is John Hurt
The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell) 9 9.09%
The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War 57 57.58%
The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor 3 3.03%
Something else entirely 30 30.30%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 27 2013, 02:34 PM   #181
DalekJim
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

People who have never read the book, and one person who vaguely remembers it, debating its content. I can really see this conversation going places.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:46 PM   #182
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

^If you're so concerned about the facts of the book, why don't you provide us with some quotes from it and contribute something meaningful to the discussion?
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Old May 27 2013, 05:04 PM   #183
Allyn Gibson
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Christopher wrote: View Post
^But if they're so insightful, why would they think that regeneration wasn't established as normal for Time Lords until "The Invasion of Time" when it was actually established four years earlier? Or was Allyn simply misremembering their essay?
Quotes. These come from the first edition of About Time 3. I don't think they made any changes for the second.

By the time the Third Doctor turns into the Fourth, the audience is used to the idea of a different actor taking over the Doctor's role... but still doesn't take it as read that the power to change is one of the Doctor's built-in abilities, and still requires the story to explain it. Even given that enough time has passed since "The War Games" for a new audience to come along, there's no assumption that parents will tell younger viewers 'oh, yes, this is what he does'.

In "Planet of the Spiders" it's stated for the very first time that a regeneration (a new word!) is what happens when a Time Lord's body gets worn out, and it sounds suspiciously like an attempt to justify the events of "The Tenth Doctor" and "The War Games" to viewers who are about to meet yet another version of the Doctor. In a word that's hitherto been more commonly used in a religious context, which is what K'Anpo seems to have been through in order to astrally-project to UNIT HQ. It's noticeable that even here, the Doctor can't regenerate without turning the whole process into a life-changing ritual, and he seems to need K'Anpo's hlp -- a 'push' -- to make the final change.

Regeneration isn't really taken for granted until "The Deadly Assassin" (14.3), and even here there were anomalies, as if Robert Holmes is being cagey about formalizing things. It's said that Time Lords can regenerate twelve times, the closest thing we've had to a "rule" so far, yet Runcible asks if the Doctor's had a 'face-lift' as if that's more likely than a full body change. (In retrospect we might assume that Runcible the Fatuous is just being casual about regeneration, but that doesn't seem to be the way the scene's written.)

For obvious reasons, "The Invasion of Time" (15.6) has to assume the existence of regeneration as a given in order for Boruse to return without actor Angus Mackay.
So I conflated what Miles and Wood said about "The Invasion of Time" with what they said about "The Deadly Assassin."

Later:

The fact remains that the only "normal" regeneration for the Doctor, the only one pitched as a routine rebirth-of-an-injured-body, is the last and least convincing of the entire BBC run; the moment at the start of "Time and the Rani" when the Sixth Doctor bangs his head on the TARDIS floor and becomes the Seventh, a metamorphosis so bland that it's accepted as a purely functional part of the programme. But it took twenty-three years to get that far.
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Old May 27 2013, 05:59 PM   #184
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Christopher wrote: View Post
Whoever those guys are, they need to do better research. The word actually used in "The Power of the Daleks" was "renewal," not "rejuvenation."
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
You should argue with the essay, not my summary of it. Miles and Wood address every objection you've made.
Christopher wrote: View Post
And however famous they may be, the fact remains that their claim about what was stated in "The Power of the Daleks" (or Allyn's secondhand description of it) was inaccurate. I did provide my sources and evidence for the points I was actually making.
That's exactly what she (it is, she? right?) meant by "not my summary of it." Since she quoted from the first edition About Time 3, I'll do from the second (as she said, I don't think the article's changed that much from edition to edition):

About Time 3 wrote:
In episode four of 4.2, "The Tenth Planet," and episode one of 4.3, "The Power of the Daleks," there's been no suggestion that it's normal for the Doctor to change his whole persona whenever he is injured. The word used in the script is renewal and even that comes from an incredulous comment made by Ben, to which the apparent newcomer responds with another question.
Power of the Daleks, via Christopher's own link wrote:
POLLY: Then you did change!
DOCTOR: Life depends on change and renewal.
BEN: Oh, so that's it. You've been renewed, have you?
DOCTOR: I've been renewed, have I? That's it. I've been renewed. It's part of the Tardis. Without it, I couldn't survive. Come here.
In short, yeah, in the future, make sure you actually, y'know, read what someone actually wrote as opposed to hearing from secondhand sources on the Internet before you accuse someone of being inaccurate and doing bad research.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:04 PM   #185
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:07 PM   #186
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
That's exactly what she (it is, she? right?) meant by "not my summary of it."
I'm actually a "he," but it's a common assumption that people make and I'm used to that, so no offense taken.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:17 PM   #187
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Christopher wrote: View Post
^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.
I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:24 PM   #188
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Christopher wrote: View Post
^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.
Again, Christopher, you are arguing with my summary, not with the essay. Just so we're clear.

From the book, the three paragraphs that precede what I previously quoted, since we're clearly throwing Fair Use to the four winds...

We tend to forget, now, how the Hartnell/Troughton change was pitched to the original audience. In part four of "The Tenth Planet" and part one of "Power of the Daleks", there's no suggestion that it's normal for the Doctor to change his whole persona whenever he's injured. The word used in the script is renewal, and even that comes from an incredulous comment made by Ben, to which the apparent newcomer responds with another question. The Doctor isn't giving anything away at this stage, and his claim that the change is 'part of the TARDIS' hints that this isn't just some kind of biological super-power.

The implication, weird as it seems now, is clear: Patrick Troughton's Doctor is supposed to be an extension of William Hartnell's. Perhaps not simply a younger version, but at the very least they're aspects of the same identity, the Second Doctor drawing a parallel with a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

And there is a kind of logic there. At heart the First Doctor is just as mischevious as the Second, but too old, tired, and impatient to extol the virtues of anarchy in the way the Troughton version does (the original idea, according to then-script-editor Gerry Davis, was a "Jekyll and Hyde" transition). They're the same individual to a far greater extent than the Third and Fourth Doctors are, or the Fourth and Fifth, of the Fifth and Sixth, or the Sixth and Seventh. It should be remembered that Doctor Who Monthly -- the only half-reliable source of Doctor Who information, until the mid-80s boom in programme guides -- believed as late as 1982 that the First and Second Doctors were supposed to be the same man. A "Matrix Data Bank" column from that year informs its readers that they shouldn't confuse "regenerations" (e.g. Pertwee into Baker) with the "rejuvenation" of Hartnell into Troughton.
That was why I used "rejuvenation" instead of "renewal" pages back. It was a deliberate choice, not an error.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:26 PM   #189
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.
Okay, that was a poor choice of words. But the fact remains, the lines in the actual episode said nothing whatsoever about rejuvenation. That's the real point I was trying to make, and my poor choice of words was an unfortunate distraction from that.

(Actually what I was trying to do was to avoid sounding like I was blaming Allyn for the inaccuracy. I thought it would be less likely to provoke an argument if I made it clear that I wasn't directing my criticism at a fellow poster. But it backfired.)
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Old May 27 2013, 07:36 PM   #190
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^But what you've quoted there is exactly what I was saying -- that the word used at that point was "renewal" instead of rejuvenation as Allyn (who is not a she) claimed. So I don't know why you think you're arguing against me when you're actually supporting the point I made -- and the point I backed up by providing direct links to actual transcripts of the episode dialogue.
I'm saying that if you haven't actually read what's someone written, and whether it's accurate or not, it's a bit much to accuse them of doing poor research, a pretty big slap to the kind of work About Time is, one heavily based on research, because (as in this case) they could've actually been right the whole damn time. Rely on other people's summaries less.
Let's face it, this stuff can get confusing on the internet - where beings, who might have different faces but are likely the same entity, are being discussed.

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Old May 27 2013, 08:12 PM   #191
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I can't believe we're arguing over renewal/rejuvenation/regeneration. About Time is a phenomenal set of books but it did get some small facts about the show wrong from time to time. Considering how many pages those books comprise, it's hardly a surprise that something would slip through the cracks.
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Old May 27 2013, 08:59 PM   #192
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Since we are discussing such things, the TARDIS Eruditorum books are worth a look.
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Old May 28 2013, 12:22 AM   #193
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Definitely. Great stuff. It's one of those books where even if you don't agree, it's still very thought provoking.
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Old May 28 2013, 06:05 AM   #194
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

As long as you don't fall asleep before you get to the end of the article.

I mean, I am sympathetic to his project, but man, he doesn't half go on.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:36 PM   #195
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
As long as you don't fall asleep before you get to the end of the article.

I mean, I am sympathetic to his project, but man, he doesn't half go on.
Agreed. There comes a point in some of the "TARDIS Eruditorum" articles where my eyes glaze over. I've never made it through the "Rose" entry, which he's said is the longest one, and in some of the more experimental entries the form gets in the way of the content. (The Interference entry is actually very good, but you wouldn't know it if you tried to read it the way it's presented.) Yet some articles, like the one on "The Five Faces of Doctor Who," that are stunning pieces of critique. I supported the Kickstarter, and I'm looking forward to having this series of footnotes to About Time on my shelf.
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