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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 28 2013, 02:14 AM   #106
CorporalClegg
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Re: Why did they bother...

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Apprently not, as the nuCast are not cultural icons
Um. Neither is the old cast.
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Old May 28 2013, 02:24 AM   #107
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Why did they bother...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Apprently not, as the nuCast are not cultural icons
Um. Neither is the old cast.
"Icon" is the current way of saying "something familiar that I like."

The oldCast (I guess we have a new shorthand, courtesy of TREK_GOD_1) are like Mom's macaroni and cheese - doesn't matter if it came out of a box marked Kraft, it's what she served when we were kids so it's the mac-and-cheese we want.
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Old May 28 2013, 02:54 AM   #108
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why did they bother...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Apprently not, as the nuCast are not cultural icons
Um. Neither is the old cast.
Uh, are you serious? I mean, I can think of several shows that lampoon the specific performances (not just the characters) of old cast members. I haven't seen much of any of that yet for the new cast, but maybe that will come in time?
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Old May 28 2013, 02:57 AM   #109
BillJ
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Apprently not, as the nuCast are not cultural icons
Um. Neither is the old cast.
Uh, are you serious? I mean, I can think of several shows that lampoon the specific performances (not just the characters) of old cast members. I haven't seen much of any of that yet for the new cast, but maybe that will come in time?
I think its more along the lines of the TOS cast weren't cultural icons in 1970, four years after the start of the series. Neither are the new guys, four years after the start of their run.

In forty or fifty years, who knows?
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Old May 28 2013, 03:05 AM   #110
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Re: Why did they bother...

YARN wrote: View Post
You're excusing the new on the basis of the old
Which is fine, since so many people attack the new based on the old.

I don't think Spock calling Kirk "Jim" is relevant, though. In ST09 he calls him Jim in the Jellyfish.

sj4iy wrote: View Post
So do I. I feel like I can relate these characters better than I ever knew the other characters.
I agree, but I think that the groundwork done by TOS and the movies help quite a bit, consciously or not.

YARN wrote: View Post
But you see no reason why they would be friends in the former.
No, he is making a comparison: if they can be friendly in early TOS, they can be friends in STID, especially after the terrible events of the last movie.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:08 AM   #111
CorporalClegg
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Uh, are you serious? I mean, I can think of several shows that lampoon the specific performances (not just the characters) of old cast members. I haven't seen much of any of that yet for the new cast, but maybe that will come in time?
Because they're familiar, not because they're iconic.

You know how many screen actors have reached iconic status? None.

One could maybe make an argument for Charlie Chaplin, John Wayne, Humphrey Bogart. But that's if you limit the definition of "iconic" to its idiomatic use. And even still, with all three it's their professional personas that would be iconic, not the actors.

In any case, a person could easily count the number of figures from contemporary pop culture who've reached iconic status on one hand. And, like I said, that's if you leave out the religious component.

People use the word way too liberally around here. I know it's Dennis's pet peeve.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:11 AM   #112
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ah, that makes sense.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:20 AM   #113
BillJ
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Re: Why did they bother...

Belz... wrote: View Post

No, he is making a comparison: if they can be friendly in early TOS, they can be friends in STID, especially after the terrible events of the last movie.
Just one more point regarding Kirk and Spock being friends in TOS. In the first episode aired, The Man Trap, we're told they're close before we ever see them on screen together...

The Man Trap wrote:
UHURA: You explain. That means that somebody is dead and you just sit there. It could be Captain Kirk. He's the closest thing you have to a friend.
So I'm not sure why it's important that we see that golden moment they become friends in these movies.
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Old May 28 2013, 03:30 AM   #114
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Re: Why did they bother...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Kirk using "hell" or Barbara Eden's navel were more important
Trek was ahead of the curve there...we saw belly buttons!
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Old May 28 2013, 03:33 AM   #115
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why did they bother...

As far as I understand the friendship criticism, it was not that they're simply friends. It was because in the first movie they were pretty much rivals, and in this movie it's progressed to a point where Spock is screaming "Khaaaaaaan" after Kirk's death (which does seem somewhat abrupt and even out of character). The critique says that these movies are relying on a lot of the previously established lore to provide that gradually established familiarity between the two, rather than building that relationship on its own. If the two movies stood alone, it's harder to believe Spock and Kirk becoming friends given how adversarial they were toward each other and given their personalities. Yeah, maybe they became friends working together in the year we didn't see, but the point there is that we didn't see it.
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Old May 28 2013, 04:14 AM   #116
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
As far as I understand the friendship criticism, it was not that they're simply friends. It was because in the first movie they were pretty much rivals, and in this movie it's progressed to a point where Spock is screaming "Khaaaaaaan" after Kirk's death (which does seem somewhat abrupt and even out of character).
For Spock?


Amok Time wrote:
SPOCK: Doctor, I shall be resigning my commission immediately, of course.
MCCOY: Spock, I
SPOCK: So I would appreciate your making the final arrangements.
MCCOY: Spock, I
SPOCK: Doctor, please, let me finish. There can be no excuse for the crime of which I'm guilty. I intend to offer no defence. Furthermore, I shall order Mister Scott to take immediate command of this vessel.
KIRK: Don't you think you better check with me first?
SPOCK: Captain! Jim!
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Old May 28 2013, 04:44 AM   #117
YARN
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Re: Why did they bother...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Remember: Post, not poster.)
What you say here, of course, is perfectly reasonable. Ad Hominem attacks are, generally, bad form in argument. You have successfully identified and warned about the use of an informal fallacy.

No, we don't have to call this "ad hominem," but this is the appropriate label. Sure would be odd for someone to outlaw using this term. It would almost seem like an attack on reason itself to outlaw reference to words which point out common errors in reasoning, wouldn't it?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
I'd particularly like it if you were to refrain altogether from posting the words "tu quoque" for the foreseeable future.* That can go for any reference (direct or indirect) to "illicit attacks," as well.



* the next 3-4 years, say.
I have no idea what "I'd particularly like..." means in this context. If this is just your personal preference, then I couldn't care less. On the other hand, are you indicating that you're going to do something about it if I do?

If you're really (i.e., coercively) prohibiting me, and me alone(?), from using appropriate terms to identify common mistakes in reasoning, then please say so directly.
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Old May 28 2013, 05:39 AM   #118
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why did they bother...

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
For Spock?
Uh, yeah. I find there to be a difference between these two situations:

- A sudden smile (which was quickly wiped away) after Spock thought he killed his CO and friend.

- Spock screaming "KHAAAAN" even though Khan wasn't responsible for Kirk's death, and then going on a rampage to hunt him down.

This new Spock is definitely more emotional, or at least definitely worse at repressing his emotions. That's fine, they want to make the character different. So I should rephrase and say that it doesn't seem like the Spock of TOS. "Out of character" was wrong because his character has been shown to be more erratic. It's really beside the point at any rate.
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Old May 28 2013, 06:13 AM   #119
M'Sharak
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Re: Why did they bother...

YARN wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Remember: Post, not poster.)
What you say here, of course, is perfectly reasonable. Ad Hominem attacks are, generally, bad form in argument. You have successfully identified and warned about the use of an informal fallacy.

No, we don't have to call this "ad hominem," but this is the appropriate label. Sure would be odd for someone to outlaw using this term. It would almost seem like an attack on reason itself to outlaw reference to words which point out common errors in reasoning, wouldn't it?
You're lecturing again.
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Old May 28 2013, 06:33 AM   #120
Nerys Myk
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Re: Why did they bother...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
For Spock?
Uh, yeah. I find there to be a difference between these two situations:

- A sudden smile (which was quickly wiped away) after Spock thought he killed his CO and friend.

- Spock screaming "KHAAAAN" even though Khan wasn't responsible for Kirk's death, and then going on a rampage to hunt him down.

This new Spock is definitely more emotional, or at least definitely worse at repressing his emotions. That's fine, they want to make the character different. So I should rephrase and say that it doesn't seem like the Spock of TOS. "Out of character" was wrong because his character has been shown to be more erratic. It's really beside the point at any rate.
Both are emotional responses to extreme events. Even in the Prime Universe, Spock was more emotional when younger. (The Cage and WNMHGB)
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