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Old May 26 2013, 05:30 AM   #16
xortex
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Re: Romulan origin question

So are Humans Klingonoids or an offshoot of Humanity - Humanoids? or just adnoids, androids and simply annoyed?
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Old May 26 2013, 09:18 AM   #17
MacLeod
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Re: Romulan origin question

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It's never stated outright how long ago Vulcans diverged genetically from Romulans.

It's interesting to say they are the same species. Technically most of the races in the galaxy are the same species, because the scientific definition of a species is a group of organisms who can produce fertile offspring. So by the scientific definition, humans and klingons are the same species, as are most of the humanoid races in the galaxy.

Vulcans and Romulans probably diverged more recently than some races of humans on earth, say a few thousand years ago, so they probably are the same species even though they're always referred to as different species.

And I suppose if Simon Tarses could fool all the blood tests, that confirms that they are biologically indistinguishable.
Well TNG's "The Chase" more or less that some of the races in ST are descended from them.
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Old May 26 2013, 09:50 AM   #18
TheSubCommander
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Re: Romulan origin question

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
It makes me wonder exactly how long Vulcans have been a spacefareing species, if an offshoot of them on another planet had time to develop into another species. They should be all over the galaxy by now.
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
It makes me wonder exactly how long Vulcans have been a spacefareing species, if an offshoot of them on another planet had time to develop into another species. They should be all over the galaxy by now.
but a technology could in theroy be lost/rejected etc.. Only to be re-discovered.
This!


It is possible that Vulcans were spacefaring prior to the ancestors of the Romulans leaving, then when Vulcan had their "world war" that devastated Vulcan, they entered a "dark age" of sorts, and maybe either stopped deep space exploration or even regressed to a pre-warp society for a while, as Vulcan rebuilt itself and under Surak's example.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It's never stated outright how long ago Vulcans diverged genetically from Romulans.

It's interesting to say they are the same species. Technically most of the races in the galaxy are the same species, because the scientific definition of a species is a group of organisms who can produce fertile offspring. So by the scientific definition, humans and klingons are the same species, as are most of the humanoid races in the galaxy.

Vulcans and Romulans probably diverged more recently than some races of humans on earth, say a few thousand years ago, so they probably are the same species even though they're always referred to as different species.

And I suppose if Simon Tarses could fool all the blood tests, that confirms that they are biologically indistinguishable.
Well it is hard to say, as Vulcanoids could possibly evolve a lot faster than humans do, so it could only take a couple thousand years for enough differences appear to make Vulcans and Romulans technically two distinct races.

Also, as the Vulcan Ancestors who became Romulans traveled from Vulcan, but before arriving on Romulus, it is possible that some, while along the way, grew tired of traveling and set down roots on other planets. The Debrune could be an example of this. Maybe the Mintakans are another example?

Another thought is what if in order to survive, the ancestors of the Romulans intermingled with other humanoid or vulcanoid races along the way to Romulus or even Romulus itself, and are technically a hybrid species, with mostly Vulcan DNA?
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Old May 26 2013, 10:10 AM   #19
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Re: Romulan origin question

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Vulcans and Romulans probably diverged more recently than some races of humans on earth, say a few thousand years ago
According to TOS's "All Our Yesterdays," Spock's ancestors a mere 5,000 years ago were savages. That would be some awfully fast history, with starflight, a possible dark age and everything else thrown in. (Remember that Vulcan logic is a philosophy, not a behavioral trait. Yet Spock's trip through the atavichron is enough to strip that away, as though it were genetic.)

Is is possible that Vulcan is the colony and Romulus the mother planet? Or perhaps both are colonies of a third planet?
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Old May 26 2013, 10:21 AM   #20
Terran
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Re: Romulan origin question

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
It makes me wonder exactly how long Vulcans have been a spacefareing species, if an offshoot of them on another planet had time to develop into another species. They should be all over the galaxy by now.
Romulans aren't a separate species. Their differences with the Vulcans are mainly cultural.

Surak lived in the 4th Century and the Vulcans seem to have been a space faring, advanced culture at that time. Though the wars of that period probably caused a "Dark Age" where much advancement was lost and many things had to be rediscovered afterwards. My assumption is that contact with most of Vulcan's colonies was lost at this time and those worlds evolved into different cultures.
Saying this though, the Romulans certainly had different physiology to Vulcans. In TNG Episode 'the enemy', Crusher tried to use methods used to treat Vulcans on a Romulan with no effect. And in TOS they were able to distinguish Spock's life signs from the Romulans.
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Old May 26 2013, 12:21 PM   #21
xortex
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Re: Romulan origin question

Metryq wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Vulcans and Romulans probably diverged more recently than some races of humans on earth, say a few thousand years ago
According to TOS's "All Our Yesterdays," Spock's ancestors a mere 5,000 years ago were savages. That would be some awfully fast history, with starflight, a possible dark age and everything else thrown in. (Remember that Vulcan logic is a philosophy, not a behavioral trait. Yet Spock's trip through the atavichron is enough to strip that away, as though it were genetic.)

Is is possible that Vulcan is the colony and Romulus the mother planet? Or perhaps both are colonies of a third planet?
Yea, the third world is Earth which could be a colony of the Klingons with a mass memory wipe.

It just occured to me that if the future guy was Archer, then he was the Nu-Trek Archer which makes a lot more sense considering the way the franchise went.
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Old May 26 2013, 02:38 PM   #22
Nerys Myk
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Re: Romulan origin question

Terran wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
It makes me wonder exactly how long Vulcans have been a spacefareing species, if an offshoot of them on another planet had time to develop into another species. They should be all over the galaxy by now.
Romulans aren't a separate species. Their differences with the Vulcans are mainly cultural.

Surak lived in the 4th Century and the Vulcans seem to have been a space faring, advanced culture at that time. Though the wars of that period probably caused a "Dark Age" where much advancement was lost and many things had to be rediscovered afterwards. My assumption is that contact with most of Vulcan's colonies was lost at this time and those worlds evolved into different cultures.
Saying this though, the Romulans certainly had different physiology to Vulcans. In TNG Episode 'the enemy', Crusher tried to use methods used to treat Vulcans on a Romulan with no effect. And in TOS they were able to distinguish Spock's life signs from the Romulans.
IIRC, in TOS distinguishing between the two was very difficult. A difference on the "racial" level rather than species.

"The Enemy" was just logic being thrown out for the sake of creating drama. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
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Old May 26 2013, 07:49 PM   #23
The Wormhole
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Re: Romulan origin question

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
"The Enemy" was just logic being thrown out for the sake of creating drama. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
Though does it really make sense that Worf is the only compatable blood donor on the Enterprise as opposed to any of the Vulcans serving aboard?
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Old May 26 2013, 08:03 PM   #24
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Re: Romulan origin question

Terran wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
It makes me wonder exactly how long Vulcans have been a spacefareing species, if an offshoot of them on another planet had time to develop into another species. They should be all over the galaxy by now.
Romulans aren't a separate species. Their differences with the Vulcans are mainly cultural.

Surak lived in the 4th Century and the Vulcans seem to have been a space faring, advanced culture at that time. Though the wars of that period probably caused a "Dark Age" where much advancement was lost and many things had to be rediscovered afterwards. My assumption is that contact with most of Vulcan's colonies was lost at this time and those worlds evolved into different cultures.
Saying this though, the Romulans certainly had different physiology to Vulcans. In TNG Episode 'the enemy', Crusher tried to use methods used to treat Vulcans on a Romulan with no effect. And in TOS they were able to distinguish Spock's life signs from the Romulans.
Indeed and at least some of the Romulans do look slightly different than Vulcans.
If you leave a planet during a horrible nuclear war with ships that probably cannot make more than Warp 1 or 2 it is not unlikely that you mate with other species before you find your new home on Romulus. After they founded their empire it could also have happened although the Romulan dogma of unlimited expansion could make them speciesists (even more speciesist than Vulcans) who do not wanna interbreed with the species they subjugate. Whatever you assume, a lot of stuff can happen during two millenia.
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Old May 26 2013, 09:03 PM   #25
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Re: Romulan origin question

Metryq wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Vulcans and Romulans probably diverged more recently than some races of humans on earth, say a few thousand years ago
According to TOS's "All Our Yesterdays," Spock's ancestors a mere 5,000 years ago were savages. That would be some awfully fast history, with starflight, a possible dark age and everything else thrown in. (Remember that Vulcan logic is a philosophy, not a behavioral trait. Yet Spock's trip through the atavichron is enough to strip that away, as though it were genetic.)

Is is possible that Vulcan is the colony and Romulus the mother planet? Or perhaps both are colonies of a third planet?
In 'Return To Tomorrow' Spock speculates that Vulcan was colonized, or even seeded, by a mother race from somewhere else, basing his supposition on Sargon's people's history. It's possible, if unlikely, that the Mintakans, the DeBrune, and the Romulans were also seeded, but somehow the Romulans maintained communications until the war of Surak's time.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Terran wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Romulans aren't a separate species. Their differences with the Vulcans are mainly cultural.

Surak lived in the 4th Century and the Vulcans seem to have been a space faring, advanced culture at that time. Though the wars of that period probably caused a "Dark Age" where much advancement was lost and many things had to be rediscovered afterwards. My assumption is that contact with most of Vulcan's colonies was lost at this time and those worlds evolved into different cultures.
Saying this though, the Romulans certainly had different physiology to Vulcans. In TNG Episode 'the enemy', Crusher tried to use methods used to treat Vulcans on a Romulan with no effect. And in TOS they were able to distinguish Spock's life signs from the Romulans.
Indeed and at least some of the Romulans do look slightly different than Vulcans.
If you leave a planet during a horrible nuclear war with ships that probably cannot make more than Warp 1 or 2 it is not unlikely that you mate with other species before you find your new home on Romulus. After they founded their empire it could also have happened although the Romulan dogma of unlimited expansion could make them speciesists (even more speciesist than Vulcans) who do not wanna interbreed with the species they subjugate. Whatever you assume, a lot of stuff can happen during two millenia.
Any differences between the Vulcans and Romulans could also be because of interbreeding with the Remans, who are either native to Remus, or an offshoot of the Romulans that are mutated from the radiation of the Vulcan civil war.
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Old May 26 2013, 10:26 PM   #26
Greenağaç
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Re: Romulan origin question

Also, in TOS (in "Balance of Terror") Spock theorises that the Romulans are an off-shoot of the Vulcans that left because they rejected logic. This had been just a myth to him until he saw the face of the Romulan commander.
You could interpret Spock's theory as being based on the knowledge that Romulus was once an ancient Vulcan colony and that no one knew for sure if that was still so or if a different race had taken over the world in the intervening time.

I'm also not neccessarily saying that the Romulans are not decended from anti-Surakians but that the war between the factions may have been an interplanetary one rather than being confined to just Vulcan.
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Old May 27 2013, 12:51 AM   #27
Shawnster
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Re: Romulan origin question

Metryq wrote: View Post

According to TOS's "All Our Yesterdays," Spock's ancestors a mere 5,000 years ago were savages. That would be some awfully fast history, with starflight, a possible dark age and everything else thrown in. (Remember that Vulcan logic is a philosophy, not a behavioral trait. Yet Spock's trip through the atavichron is enough to strip that away, as though it were genetic.)
It had been previously established (I think) that Spock could feel or sense the death of all the Vulcans on the Intrepid in "Immunity Syndrome." I understood Spock's lack of logical behavior the result of a telepathic link to the savage Vulcans of 5,000 years in the past.

MCCOY: Are you trying to kill me, Spock? Is that what you really want? Think. What are you feeling? Rage? Jealousy? Have you ever had those feelings before?
SPOCK: This is impossible. Impossible. I am a Vulcan.
MCCOY: The Vulcan you knew won't exist for another five thousand years. Think, man. What's happening on your planet right now, this very moment?
SPOCK: My ancestors are barbarians. Warlike barbarians.
MCCOY: Who nearly killed themselves off with their own passions. Spock, you're reverting into your ancestors five thousand years before you were born!
SPOCK: I've lost myself. I do not know who I am. Can we go back?
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Old May 27 2013, 08:16 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Romulan origin question

Nothing in "All Our Yesterdays" establishes the tech level of these barbarians, though. Perhaps in 3000 BC, they are meat-eating, brother-slaying barbarians with antimatter projectors?

Also interestingly, we never learn when the Romulans began to be called Romulans. Was that before or after they left Vulcan? "Minefield" establishes that T'Pol knows the name "Romulan" from old Vulcan history, but we don't know how old; "Balance of Terror" establishes that Vulcans had a barbaric colonial period, but we don't know if this was before or after they started starfaring, and whether it had anything to do with Romulans, or merely serves as an example of how bloodlusty an "unreformed" Vulcanoid culture can be.

For all we know, Romulans were one of the many factions that fought each other on planet Vulcan back in the days of brutality - possibly over racial issues, the "Romulan faction" consisting of the ridgeheaded race plus their smoothheaded sympathizers. Their departure from Vulcan is not well documented in canon; perhaps they did not really leave in disgust when Surak took all the joy out of being Vulcan, but rather were forced out by racist smoothheads? The ENT dialogue between Archer and Surak's katra vaguely supports the idea that they only left after Surak's own life ended, but perhaps the Surakian reformation and the associated Romulan departure only came centuries after Surak himself?

Adding to the mix, Q once discussed a hundred-year war between Vulcans and Romulans (VOY "Death Wish"). Alas, we don't know if it was in the past or the future of the episode, or perhaps in another timeline altogether. Nothing in canon precludes Vulcan/Romulan conflict after the separation as such; it would merely imply that a massive coverup existed so that Vulcans in the TOS era could still claim deadpan that they did not know for certain who the Romulans are. The aforementioned ENT dialogue almost establishes such conflict before the separation, but neglects to explicitly use the name "Romulan" there.

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Old May 27 2013, 10:37 PM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: Romulan origin question

Greenağaç wrote: View Post
It seems widely accepted that the Romulans are decended from opponents of Surak and his teachings and that they left Vulcan during the Time of Awakening but I can't remember this actually being out right stated in any episode.
Is this just some form of fanon or have I missed an important reference some where.
Your memory serves you well from a strictly TOS point of view, there was no such reference in the original series and in my not humble opinion the conclusions drawn from the available information for the later Star Trek are erroneous.

Balance of Terror:

STILES: We know what they look like.
SPOCK: Yes, indeed we do, Mister Stiles. And if Romulans are an offshoot of my Vulcan blood, and I think this likely, then attack becomes even more imperative.
MCCOY: War is never imperative, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: It is for them, Doctor. Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonising period. Savage, even by Earth standards. And if Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show.

While we learn that Vulcan apparently had an aggressive (space) colonizing period, Spock has no specific knowledge or suggestion whatsoever regarding Romulan offshoots. The "if" could suggest he didn't expect Vulcan descendants that far out.

The Savage Curtain:

SURAK: The image of Surak read in your face what is in your mind, Spock.
SPOCK: As I turned and my eyes beheld you, I displayed emotion. I beg forgiveness.
SURAK: The cause was more than sufficient. Let us speak no further of it. In my time, we knew not of Earth men. I am pleased to see that we have differences. May we together become greater than the sum of both of us.


SURAK: In my time on Vulcan, we also faced these same alternatives. We'd suffered devastating wars which nearly destroyed our planet. Another was about to begin. We were torn. But out of our suffering some of us found the discipline to act. We sent emissaries to our opponents to propose peace. The first were killed, but others followed. Ultimately we achieved peace, which has lasted since then.

"Devastating Wars" sounds like a reasonable explanation that many records of Vulcan history prior to the advent of Surak had gotten lost.
This is a good example of TOS continuity where we finally learn of possible reasons why Spock simply couldn't deliver more information about the origin of the Romulans in "Balance of Terror".

However, "The Savage Curtain" clearly reveals that Vulcan history had been recorded and preserved, after Surak's arrival, otherwise Spock couldn't have remembered such details.
But apparently, the exodus of those Vulcans that did not agree to Surak's philosophy was not recorded to come up as an option for explanation during "Balance of Terror"?

The other big questions are
  • why did the exodus Vulcans embark voluntarily on a difficult journey (presumably nuBSG style?) to the farthest reaches of space ?
  • why did the exodus Vulcans voluntarily deprive themselves of warp drive technology so that a few thousand years later all they have is "simple impulse drive" (regarding cloaking technology it's not impossible they got access to this advanced technology accidentally from a crashed ship or the like from the b&w inhabitants of Cheron)
I think that the name "Romulans" and its obvious allusions to ancient Rome might have been a hint. What did the Romans do with aristocratic VIPs they didn't dare to execute? They exiled them to the farthest corners of the Roman Empire.

In this analogy the Romulans might have simply been considered to be the offspring of exiles, relocated to the far reaches of space and with no realistic possibility of ever returning to Vulcan given the interstellar distance and lack of warp drive knowledge, all prior to the advent of Surak.

Of course, retcon activity in TNG and further deprived us of such a possibility but from a strictly TOS point of view, I believe that was possibly the backstory intended.

Bob
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Old May 28 2013, 01:15 AM   #30
I am not Spock
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Re: Romulan origin question

For some reason, in TNG, they added unnecessary forehead ridges on Romulans. As if the audience would be too stupid to tell them apart from Vulcans.
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