RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,893
Posts: 5,330,301
Members: 24,555
Currently online: 561
Newest member: berlyn

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 26 2013, 11:13 PM   #106
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Of course, for those who want a whole new tech manual starting from scratch, none of the above matters?
Yeah, that would be one helluva project.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 10:18 AM   #107
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
At this point, we’ll probably never know for sure whether FJ knew of its existence [Auxiliary Control Room] or not?
What's the point in knowing? Either he didn't know of its existence or he decided to ignore it.

In either case he wasn't qualified to be referred to as a Star Trek authority, mind a Star Trek expert.

One of the prerequisites to achieve such a status, IMHO, is substantial knowledge of the matter to some extent and its accurate, unbiased reproduction (which doesn't exclude different interpretations on why and how a certain component does function). YMMV, of course.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 11:08 AM   #108
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
But back on point: on this issue FJ deliberately ignored a well established fact of the ship as seen onscreen. I'm not giving him a pass on this one.
In assuming he deliberately ignored the Auxilary Control Room, you presuppose that FJ had seen and noticed it in the first place.

After having read the interviews again at www.trekplace.com (which is an excercise I can't repeat recommending) there is no substantial hint he was aware of these and other interior compartments not featured in the studio set blueprint of The Making of Star Trek or in the film stills accessible to him.

You can read in these interviews how uncomfortable he was going to Star Trek Conventions and how he emphasized that his work should not be considered to be a bible of some kind (someone should forward these interviews to James Dixon and friends).

It shouldn't take a lot of imagination that during those conventions he meet Trekkers that did ask him those hard questions like "Where's the Auxilary Control Room". What was he supposed to say?

"Sorry, I based my work entirely on the information I got from The Making of Star Trek, a couple of film stills and an occasional item here and there I noticed while watching the reruns with my daughter"?

Fans looked up to him like a guru, almost a Carlos Castaneda thing, and he didn't have the heart to tell them that he was not the kind of Star Trek expert fans assumed him to be. IMHO, he made that clear in the interviews. Apparently he enjoyed his status as a guru because it enabled him to promote his ideas of space exploration and political participation.
I can't, won't and don't blame him for that.

Therefore, I believe that by emancipating ourselves from his work and using our own knowledge to come up with a different kind of technical manual would rather be something he would have approved and encouraged. Didn't somebody mention IDIC in the course of this thread?

Bob
This is the first time I have read a post by you that gives me the impression you have actually looked into what Franz Joseph was about and not posted a preconceived idea that you tried to support with cherry picked data. I really, honestly congratualate you. Franz Joseph was what he was. Fallible, not a god or a guru. Fans made him into what they wanted him to be- a way of keeping Star Trek alive and "real". For whatever reason, he played along. The facts of Star Trek production, so important to the modern canon-obsessed fan, were simply not as important then as they are now, and what this man produced is reflective of that fact. There was an acknowledgement during the 1970s of the production's shortcomings - that sets were made to fit exteriors they couldn't fit within, or that sets were constantly being redressed to fulfill multiple purposes, etc - and rather than take that literally and feel bound to make a square fit within a circle, Franz Joseph took it as license to show us unseen spaces that were what he believed had actually been intended.

I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as the degree to which his speculation was informed. You say he had TMoST and a few stills. i say he met and corresponded with Roddenberry, was lauded by him for his work and eventually hired by him to do the same kind of things for Roddenberry's Planet Earth series proposal that Wah Chang and Matt Jefferies had done for Star Trek. He met Jefferies. He met Justman. And he met these people only a few years after TOS had ceased production. How we can sit in our lofty, internet-informed perch and castigate a figure with such contemporary and personal access for daring to portray unseen intent instead of only what had been seen on TV is, in my view, assuming too much. Way too much. He did what fans wanted him to do, using a remarkable level of access to portray not only things that had already been seen, but things we only dreamed might exist.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 02:31 PM   #109
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
At this point, we’ll probably never know for sure whether FJ knew of its existence [Auxiliary Control Room] or not?
What's the point in knowing? Either he didn't know of its existence or he decided to ignore it.
I'm inclined to cut Franz Joseph Schnaubelt a large deal of slack. He used the resource of TMOST and he had access to a whole slew of film clips. Beyond that, the old Star Trek Fotonovel series was still years away (and with regard to Auxiliary Control in particular, it didn't appear in any of the twelve books in that series anyway). I'm not exactly sure what other resources he should have used to do higher fidelity work. Perhaps instead of carefully analyzing minute film clips, he should have just zipped over to Best Buy and bought the three seasons of Star Trek on Blu-Ray disc so he could do even more accurate work.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 02:34 PM   #110
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
There was an acknowledgement during the 1970s of the production's shortcomings - that sets were made to fit exteriors they couldn't fit within, or that sets were constantly being redressed to fulfill multiple purposes, etc - and rather than take that literally and feel bound to make a square fit within a circle, Franz Joseph took it as license to show us unseen spaces that were what he believed had actually been intended.
The only TOS set I'm aware of where the interiors wouldn't fit into the exterior is the shuttlecraft and some of the redressing work Matt Jefferies accomplished is rather impressive because it went by unnoticed (e.g. laboratory).

However, I'm unable to see where Franz Joseph exceeded the quality of the original production. In his engineering hull there is - again - plenty of space devoted to gyms and dance floors, elements he equally recycled from the saucer.

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
How we can sit in our lofty, internet-informed perch and castigate a figure with such contemporary and personal access for daring to portray unseen intent instead of only what had been seen on TV is, in my view, assuming too much.
Who castigates Franz Joseph? The question was how much, if any of his materials, should be incorporated into an upgrade of the TM.

According to the "unseen intent" available through The Making of Star Trek there were only 12 ships like the Enterprise and he ignored this by coming up with several dozens more. With only 12 ships like the Enterprise (an analogy to the US Navy aircraft carriers of the 1960's) it wouldn't sound like an inside joke, that the Enterprise is the only vessel within interception range, it's a connotation because of FJ's alteration of what had been actually intended.

And there is this noteworthy anecdote, in FJ's own words, that Gene Roddenberry's major criticism of his work was the militaristic overtone he added to the Star Trek Universe.

Apparently, such items would need to be fixed, too, if we were serious about honoring the original intentions of the creators and producers.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 02:38 PM   #111
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what other resources he should have used to do higher fidelity work.
Watch the daily reruns on TV and note some observations perhaps?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 02:50 PM   #112
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Without the ability to replay that was of little use. I know. I even tried photographing off the TV screen but the results were at best barely useable.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 03:12 PM   #113
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what other resources he should have used to do higher fidelity work.
Watch the daily reruns on TV and note some observations perhaps?

Bob
He did that! But you have to keep in mind that there were no VHS or DVD's back then, so not being able to freeze-frame what you want to take a closer look at makes it hard to pin down the design of a set, when it only appears onscreen for a few seconds at a time and the camera keeps focusing on actors and not background. Heck even with these things it can still be hard to do without the aid computers and/or original plans for these obscure sets, neither of which FJ had in those days either!
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 03:37 PM   #114
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what other resources he should have used to do higher fidelity work.
Watch the daily reruns on TV and note some observations perhaps?

Bob
Sure. Quit his job so he can be home at 4:00 to watch Star Trek everyday in reruns in San Diego--and be ready at a moment's notice to scribble some notes about something "important" without missing something else that's "important" while you're writing, and without going back to be able to see if you got it right. Also, this has to be done with no real knowledge of what might be in each episode that would be important. It's not like he was able to say "Ah! 'I, Mudd.' I better get ready to write. I can get lots of details about Auxiliary Control *and* Emergency Manual Monitor." And if you miss a detail, well, you can wait: the episode will come back around in sixteen weeks.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 05:33 PM   #115
Irishman
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Of course, for those who want a whole new tech manual starting from scratch, none of the above matters?
Yeah, that would be one helluva project.
You're thinkin' about doing just that.

I can tell.
Irishman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 11:09 PM   #116
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
According to the "unseen intent" available through The Making of Star Trek there were only 12 ships like the Enterprise and he ignored this by coming up with several dozens more.
FJ didn't ignore that since it was mentioned onscreen, which proves he was paying attention, but your ignoring what Albertese posted way back on page One of this thread.

http://imageshack.us/f/84/fjstarshiptimeline.jpg/

Surely the producers did not preclude the possibility of a growth in fleet strength, or that the 12 starships statement had to stand for all time?
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2013, 11:58 PM   #117
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Irishman wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Of course, for those who want a whole new tech manual starting from scratch, none of the above matters?
Yeah, that would be one helluva project.
You're thinkin' about doing just that.

I can tell.
Actually over the years I have thought about it. Thing is, though, it would probably never get published. The market for these books is quite small now and the fact that it doesn't really gel with what is considered "official" would probably get in the way too.

That said it would be possible to do a web based technical manual. That is something I'm seriously considering. My TOS and TAS shuttlecraft drawings could essentially be the first candidates for such a thing. One small difference could be that instead of having one sheet with three views like in FJ's manual you could have a sheet for each view which allows you greater detail. And being web based you could also use 3D models along with line drawings to really bring things to life.

You basically set up a contents page just like a book and then you can click on each item for a detailed look at the the subject.

Table of Contents:
- Lists all the materiel within the manual (and obviously you can start small and add as you go).

...click on a subject and...

Introductory Page:
- Starts with an illustration of the subject as well as a descriptive and perhaps also some historical content. From this page you can click further to more detailed views and specifications and whatever.


FJ went beyond what we saw onscreen and showed us conjectural things like new classes of ships. You could follow that reasoning as long as what you show is consistent with what was established onscreen. Some of FJ's ideas would have to be fleshed out more or even corrected. You could certainly now show classes of alien ships, equipment and uniforms as well as pre TOS materiel.

I would suggest a different name for this kind of reference manual. In the back of my mind I've had two names I've rather liked: the Starfleet Command Library or the Starfleet Starflight Catalog.

I know for myself while I certainly have a lot of ideas for this I've seen a number of other designs around that I think fit right in with my overall thinking. Some of Masao's designs as well as Vektor's very cool Vanguard design.

With this kind of site you could go beyond the TOS era and into the TMP era. I wouldn't be inclined to go beyond that because it's not where my interests lay and then it gets to be a monster project (as if it ain't big enough already).
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 12:23 AM   #118
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Gentlemen,

having become a Trekker in the 1970's I'm well aware of the limited availability of visual reference materials but at conventions (which FJ also visited) we bought and traded prints from film stills or - where necessary - pictures taken from our TV sets. This may have been crude compared to today's standards but it wasn't rocket science. You just had to put some "passion" into it.

Of course, exotic sets had less feature time than in comparison a set like the transporter room. But given the regular appearance of the transporter room in the series it was obvious that the odd angle the console had in the studio set drawing in The Making of Star Trek was wrong, yet it reflects in FJ's works with the same angle. Did he understand that the function was to control and face the transport chamber?
Apparently, he didn't care to check or notice.

And the same story obviously applies to his reproduction of the type II phaser. The photo illustration section in The Making of Star Trek has several discrepancies but the most noticable (and in this context tragic) one is a photo cut-out of this phaser which altered its form.
And that's obviously the reason why it has the incorrect shape that FJ reproduced in the TM.

Ironically, the phaser is among the items which according to the interviews started the whole project and yet, it seems he never bothered to take another look at a picture of one of these at conventions or elsewhere.

Since he made it abundantly clear in his interviews how dispassionate he felt about Star Trek, these (or other) things don't come as big surprises.

But what amazes me in this thread is the myth building as if he had the great masterplan to unlock the mysteries the creators themselves were not aware of.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 12:57 AM   #119
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

What amazes me in this thread is that you keep reading the same interviews the rest of us have read and keep finding things that aren't there.

Apparently, he didn't care to check or notice.
And that you seem to have the ability to read the mind of a dead man. Because hey, there just is no way he looked at the thing, thought it was right, passed it by the fans who obviously said it was right, checked it against what he saw was on TV and confirmed to his satisfaction it was right, then considered the possibility that some guy forty years hence would claim he didn't care enough to get it perfect but decided such a clairvoyant was beyond the ability of mere mortals to debate, and thus went back to hand drawing and hand lettering the other hundred plus pages in the manual he was doing speculatively, without a contract, for a bunch of kids.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 04:08 AM   #120
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

@ Bob,

What amazes me is that you are capable of such spectacular feats of mental gymnastics such that you can “rationalize” curved and circular corridors in the secondary hull of the Enterprise, yet when it comes to a no-brainer like the transporter console obviously not being bolted to the deck, which explains (in universe) why we saw it in various slightly different places and angles relative to the platform throughout the course of Kirk’s five year mission, you seem incapable of rubbing two brain cells together to make a spark!

And we’ve already discussed the phaser; nobody here is giving FJ a pass on this one, it was a mistake on FJ’s part and it was a biggie, nuff said.

And while some fans may make a guru out of FJ, none of them are posting on this thread (well, except for that one Ensign with the bad spelling ) yet you want to tar us all with the same brush anyway, despite our demonstrated willingness to hold him accountable wherever he truly deserves it, and our openness to correcting his mistakes, which is hardly the behavior typical of “groupies”.

Last edited by TIN_MAN; May 28 2013 at 04:26 AM.
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.