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Old May 27 2013, 04:47 AM   #46
1001001
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Re: death penalty

Unicron wrote: View Post
Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty? I'm asking only as a devil's advocate and I agree with all of your Ifs, I'm just not entirely convinced that the state is inherently murdering when there are circumstances that might cost an extremely dangerous and clearly guilty offender their life.
A legitimate war (rare these days) can be justified as a form of self-defense.

And I would argue that self-defense is the only justification for killing someone.

Once a person is in custody, in a cell, under guard, the self-defense argument is lost, IMHO.
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Old May 27 2013, 04:53 AM   #47
MacLeod
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Re: death penalty

As others have already said, one of the key things going against the Death Peanlty sooner or later someone who was innocent of the crime with which they were found guilty, could later be found to have not commited the crime and therefore innocent.

So I'd have to be in the no camp, I'm sure a quick google search could turn up plenty of results of people who where found guilty of a crime which carried a sentace of capital punishment later having their sentance overturned.
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Old May 27 2013, 05:15 AM   #48
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: death penalty

Unicron wrote: View Post
But it's fair to say that not all laws are morally valid or potentially legal, even if the state claims otherwise.
Of course. We can say execution is wrong, because it's wrong to kill (and all the other arguments that have been listed), but we can't say execution is MURDER, because execution is allowed under the law and murder is not. I'm just talking about legal arguments, that's all. Remember, I'm on your side in this!
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Old May 27 2013, 07:13 AM   #49
Faria
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Re: death penalty

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Faria wrote: View Post
well, i consider myself as venitian
I guess that explains it. You support putting down people guilty of petty crimes like they were animals, you scorn immigrants, and you have troubles with spelling and grammar. Tell me, do you also vote Lega Nord?
no, non ho mai votato lega nord.

riguardo al modo in cui scrivo, è perchè scrivo in inglese, una lingua che conosco poco.
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Old May 27 2013, 09:01 AM   #50
iguana_tonante
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Re: death penalty

The rest is still damning enough.

But I guess it's fine: I wouldn't want people here to think all Italians are brilliant as me.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:21 PM   #51
Alidar Jarok
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Re: death penalty

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
IF the death penalty wasn't unequally applied against minorities, the less educated, and the poor...

IF the death penalty wasn't more expensive than life imprisonment...

IF the death penalty was part of consistent nationwide sentencing guidelines and didn't vary by state to state...

IF the death penalty actually served as an effective deterrent against crime...

IF the death penalty was only applied to those who were guaranteed beyond a shadow of a doubt to be guilty...

Then I still would be opposed to capital punishment because it's hypocritical, illogical, and morally wrong to punish murder with state sanctioned murder.
Yeah, I think that about sums up almost all of my concerns.

Unicron wrote: View Post
Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty?
Well, I view warfare as national self-defense. I think it would be wrong to resort to warfare solely to avenge a past wrong if there's no chance of future harm. But self-defense is justified homicide.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The way I look at that is, murder is always illegal, so there can never be "state-sponsored" murder. Killing that is allowed under the law cannot, by definition, be illegal, therefore it's not murder.
Well, it's not quite that simple because that's fairly tautological. However, you're correct that it is homicide, but not murder. Homicide with a justification or excuse is not supposed to be murder. The problem is the legal carveout is one that, if done by anyone else, would be murder. Vigilante murder is still murder. Lynching is still murder. If the law carved these outs, almost everyone would think the law was wrong. However, the state carves this one out for itself and people accept it. It can still be hypocritical even if it might be technically correct.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:57 PM   #52
Relayer1
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Re: death penalty

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
But I guess it's fine: I wouldn't want people here to think all Italians are brilliant as me.
The idea hadn't occurred to me...
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Old May 27 2013, 03:14 PM   #53
iguana_tonante
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Re: death penalty

Well, being Italian is a good kickstart for being awesome, but I take it to the next level.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:30 PM   #54
stj
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Re: death penalty

Yes, I always look up to people from Berlusconia.

PS This is mostly my gall bladder talking. Even so, if being Italian is the start of awesome, so must Berlusconi.

And I forgot. If there is a reasonable prospect of the convict being released despite terrible crimes, there is a reasonable case for the death penalty. This occurs largely during revolutionary times, when a few years can revive the fortunes of many villains. Long term imprisonment is not always a feasible option, unfortunately.
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Last edited by stj; May 27 2013 at 08:03 PM.
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Old May 27 2013, 06:02 PM   #55
Harvey
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Re: death penalty

What Locutus of Bored said sums up my position.
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Old May 27 2013, 09:36 PM   #56
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: death penalty

Well lets examine if the death peanlty actsas a deterrent

According to Amnesty Intl. Sates with WIth the death penalty have higher murder rates than those who don't.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...and-deterrence

Yet more stats

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/dete...r-murder-rates

So the evidence would seem to de-bunk the argument that some use that the death penalty acts as a deterrent. (Of course other factors might have an impact on the murder rates in the differnt states).
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Old May 27 2013, 10:02 PM   #57
Gov Kodos
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Re: death penalty

1001001 wrote: View Post
Unicron wrote: View Post
Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty? I'm asking only as a devil's advocate and I agree with all of your Ifs, I'm just not entirely convinced that the state is inherently murdering when there are circumstances that might cost an extremely dangerous and clearly guilty offender their life.
A legitimate war (rare these days) can be justified as a form of self-defense.

And I would argue that self-defense is the only justification for killing someone.

Once a person is in custody, in a cell, under guard, the self-defense argument is lost, IMHO.
Also, to go with Clausewitz that 'war is politics by other means' its purpose isn't to kill other people, but to achieve some goal through force that standard diplomatic means won't. The intention of war is not to kill anyone it's a sad result, unlike murder where ending life is the primary goal.
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Old May 27 2013, 11:36 PM   #58
BennieGamali
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Re: death penalty

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
BennieGamali wrote: View Post
I think the death penalty is wrong.

Buuut.. if there is ever a planet where we could stick rapists and killers...

I don't know. I just wish that people who wish to do others harm could be beamed to another place where they could do harm to eachother. Peace for the peacefull.
I don't wish them harm. I just want the rest of us to be safe from them. A long prison sentence -- life, if need be -- serves that purpose. Not 100% of the time, but usually.
I don't care enough about random criminals to wish them harm either. But I wish they couldn't harm anyone else.
But if some [insert bad word] did something to my loved ones or myself, I am certain I would wish them harm. I even wish harm upon people who don't pick up their dogs poop. I wish the poop would magically move to the top of their head unless they picked it up.

But I don't think it's a good thing to want revenge. I just can't help wishing people were disciplined for the bad things they do.
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Old May 28 2013, 01:59 AM   #59
Tora Ziyal
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Re: death penalty

BennieGamali wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
BennieGamali wrote: View Post
I think the death penalty is wrong.

Buuut.. if there is ever a planet where we could stick rapists and killers...

I don't know. I just wish that people who wish to do others harm could be beamed to another place where they could do harm to eachother. Peace for the peacefull.
I don't wish them harm. I just want the rest of us to be safe from them. A long prison sentence -- life, if need be -- serves that purpose. Not 100% of the time, but usually.
I don't care enough about random criminals to wish them harm either. But I wish they couldn't harm anyone else.
But if some [insert bad word] did something to my loved ones or myself, I am certain I would wish them harm. I even wish harm upon people who don't pick up their dogs poop. I wish the poop would magically move to the top of their head unless they picked it up.

But I don't think it's a good thing to want revenge. I just can't help wishing people were disciplined for the bad things they do.
Disciplined, yes, of course. Harmed, no. I was not just speaking hypothetically of random criminals. Someone is doing many years in prison for what he did to me. I wish him no harm; I just want him where he can't hurt anyone.
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Old May 28 2013, 07:50 AM   #60
iguana_tonante
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Re: death penalty

stj wrote: View Post
Yes, I always look up to people from Berlusconia.

PS This is mostly my gall bladder talking. Even so, if being Italian is the start of awesome, so must Berlusconi.
Well, in his own twisted way, Berlusconi is strikingly lurid, you cannot deny that. No half-measures around here.

Sorry about the gall bladder. But at least makes your posts interesting, instead of the usual unreadable blather.
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