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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 26 2013, 10:36 PM   #181
SantaEddie74
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

When it comes to the minor details I just look at it as J.J. saying: "These are Star Trek fans. A lot of them have been engrossed in this stuff their whole lives. They know Khan's details for the most part, so why go into a five-minute soliloquy about the Eugenics Wars and where he's supposed to be from? We have to keep the film's pacing going, and besides - if the folks in the audience want to know more about Khan there are tons of websites, books and DVDs that talk about the guy."

At least we have 46 years' worth of backstory on Khan to inform us whether J.J. went into detail or not. Want a rant about something that should have been explained better onscreen? Picard being cloned in Nemesis. It's almost as if the screenwriters realized they were just leaving a ton of gaping plotholes and timeline inconsistencies wide open for the nitpicking and took the Seinfeld route, going "The Romulans wanted to infiltrate Starfleet, so....there's this kinda famous captain they've heard about named Picard....and yadda-yadda-yadda....bald clone who's slowly dying and loves black leather and capes."
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Old May 26 2013, 10:42 PM   #182
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
The way I see it, one line of dialogue from forty-six years ago is no big deal. As the saying goes, sometimes an ounce of inaccuracy saves a ton of explanation.
Why do the audiences today need "a ton of explanation" what a Sikh is, but the audiences in the 60s didn't?
Khan was a genetically engineered tyrant over all eurasia hundreds of years ago, got overthrown and escaped/exiled into space. One line of monologue.
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting that Sikhs were too hard to explain these days. It was addressing the continuity issue and that it probably made more sense just to ignore one old line of dialogue than to try to explain it away--or let it determine the casting of the character. "An ounce of inaccuracy" being better than a finicky adherence to What They Did Before.

In other words: cast whoever you want and don't fret about the Sikh thing--which was only mentioned once to begin with.

It's funny. I remember when people first started talking about recasting Khan, people kept suggesting Hispanic actors like Antonio Banderas, Benecio del Toro, etc. Which suggests that people cared less about staying true to Khan's Indian backstory--and more about finding another Ricardo Montalban!
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Old May 26 2013, 10:51 PM   #183
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Besides, for all we know Admiral Marcus and Section 31 had Khan submit to a form of cosmetic surgery to mask his appearance, which might have given away his true historical identity to somebody along the way. When awakened from his cryogenic canister he looked like Montalban in "Space Seed" but Marcus and others didn't want to take chances that somebody in Starfleet or elsewhere on Earth would recognize that a 300-year-old former genetic tyrant and war criminal was roaming around the 23rd century. So they had him go under the scalpel and....there you have it. Montalban becomes Cumberbatch.


Who knows, really. All we can do is speculate and come up with our own theories because I don't think even the novelization of the new film explains what happened after the Botany Bay was located other than Khan alone was revived and the other Augments were left in cryofreeze.
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Old May 27 2013, 12:56 AM   #184
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

Just his race.
What race would that be?
Indian.
Indian isn't a race, it's a nationality. Using "classical" racial classifications Khan would be a Caucasian and might have spoken an Indo-Aryan language.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:36 AM   #185
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
cooleddie74 wrote:
That way J.J. honors continuity but doesn't step in a huge nerd minefield by changing some detail about Khan's age, the wars or his ship.
Just his race.
Yeah, makes him British instead of Latino. What's up with that?
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Old May 27 2013, 01:36 AM   #186
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like a burned Kryten?

DavidLeeRoth wrote: View Post
He looks more like Darth Maul than a Klingon. The head has a cube-like shape, that thing running down the head doesn't resemble a ridge, the whole head looks like it was dunked in BBQ sauce and put on the grill and he doesn't have any hair.


Now that's just racist.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:53 AM   #187
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Australis wrote: View Post
Here's my answer to the Khan race thing, spread it around if you like it.

Genetics. What a random chance they are! Every birth, every person, is the result of complete chance. Look at your own family - the same parents, yet you and your siblings look different, act different, have different genders. And it's quite conceivable (no pun intended) that in alternate universes, even with your same parents and your same moment of conception, that other you is different.

Okay. Now, consider people that were setting themselves up to be genetic supermen. They are fiddling with genes and eggs and sperm, to improve the human species far beyond anything it currently is. Now combine the chances of conception with full on human intervention, and keeping the mind they are blending the bext genes of humanity... he could have been anything. In the prime universe he was uh, Mexican of Indian descent. In the JJverse, he's Caucasian of Indian descent. In the next universe over, he's he's Khan Inayat Singh, an Eskimo of Indian descent.

You're welcome.
Here's the problem: the Abramsverse was supposed to be the same as the Prime timeline before Nero's arrival in 2233. This would include Khan's genetic makeup.
It was SUPPOSED to do no such thing. It was IMPLIED primarily as charity to canon thumpers.

OTOH, the lack of other time travel events that can no longer occur in the Abrams universe -- particularly, the lack of Starfleet intervention against the Devidians, Kirk never crossing paths with Gary 7 and the Enterprise never triggering a continent-wide panic by suddenly showing up on NORAD's air defense radars. Likewise: transparent aluminum now won't be invented until the 2030s and not by Dr. Nichols; Gillian Taylor will still be in Frisco when the Eugenics Wars kick off, and there will be no record of a retarded Russian inexplicably appearing in the reactor room of the USS Enterprise and being subsequently captured, only to be extracted by a group of armed men who get cornered in an elevator only to literally vanish into thin air.

IOW, when Narada destroyed the Kelvin, it didn't just affect the future of that timeline, it also affected anything that has ever been done by time travelers.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:11 AM   #188
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OTOH, the lack of other time travel events that can no longer occur in the Abrams universe -- particularly, the lack of Starfleet intervention against the Devidians, Kirk never crossing paths with Gary 7 and the Enterprise never triggering a continent-wide panic by suddenly showing up on NORAD's air defense radars. Likewise: transparent aluminum now won't be invented until the 2030s and not by Dr. Nichols; Gillian Taylor will still be in Frisco when the Eugenics Wars kick off, and there will be no record of a retarded Russian inexplicably appearing in the reactor room of the USS Enterprise and being subsequently captured, only to be extracted by a group of armed men who get cornered in an elevator only to literally vanish into thin air.

IOW, when Narada destroyed the Kelvin, it didn't just affect the future of that timeline, it also affected anything that has ever been done by time travelers.
Your opinion. I disagree with just about every single word in your post, but if thinking that none of the time travel we've seen in Trek since TOS has "now" happened thanks to Nero's arrival in 2233 is something that floats your boat and helps you make sense of things, then more power to you.

If time travel in the Prime reality has been changed and none of the visitations by TOS and other series' and films' characters to the past even happened, then shouldn't Nero's and Spock's travel into the past from Prime 2387 (the post-Nemesis Picard era) have also, you know....not happened? Should the Abramsverse even exist at all?

It's Trek time travel. It rarely makes sense and is full of contradictions and paradoxes, but as far as this lifelong fan is concerned Kirk and crew were on Earth in 1930, 1968, 1969 and 1986. Quark and the gang crashed near Roswell in 1947. Picard and his people visited 1893. Sisko, Bashir and Dax materialized in 2024. The 1701-E crew helped Cochrane make his first warp flight and defeated the Borg in 2063.

Etc., etc., etc.
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Old May 27 2013, 08:39 AM   #189
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
What race would that be?
Indian.
Indian isn't a race, it's a nationality. Using "classical" racial classifications Khan would be a Caucasian and might have spoken an Indo-Aryan language.
I don't recall all the race hoopla when they cast Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury in the Marvel movies.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:25 PM   #190
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Australis wrote: View Post
Here's my answer to the Khan race thing, spread it around if you like it.

Genetics. What a random chance they are! Every birth, every person, is the result of complete chance. Look at your own family - the same parents, yet you and your siblings look different, act different, have different genders. And it's quite conceivable (no pun intended) that in alternate universes, even with your same parents and your same moment of conception, that other you is different.

Okay. Now, consider people that were setting themselves up to be genetic supermen. They are fiddling with genes and eggs and sperm, to improve the human species far beyond anything it currently is. Now combine the chances of conception with full on human intervention, and keeping the mind they are blending the bext genes of humanity... he could have been anything. In the prime universe he was uh, Mexican of Indian descent. In the JJverse, he's Caucasian of Indian descent. In the next universe over, he's he's Khan Inayat Singh, an Eskimo of Indian descent.

You're welcome.
Here's the problem: the Abramsverse was supposed to be the same as the Prime timeline before Nero's arrival in 2233. This would include Khan's genetic makeup.
Hmm. Valid point, up to a point. I agree that when the Nerada appeared was when things were supposed to change, but I contend changes were in place anyway, some little things that I thought must have been different before the Nerada arrived. So I go with that. Also what I said above I think still stands too. YMMV.

EDIT: And what eddie said.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:49 PM   #191
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Sisko_is_my_captain wrote: View Post
I don't recall all the race hoopla when they cast Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury in the Marvel movies.
That's because Samual L. Jackson would have gone to their house and fucked them up.
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Old May 28 2013, 08:24 AM   #192
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
If time travel in the Prime reality has been changed...
It hasn't. It's a parallel universe, remember? When you factor in time travel events, Nero's arrival didn't just change the future, it also changed the past. In addition to lacking a common destiny after that point, they also lack a common history BEFORE that point.

shouldn't Nero's and Spock's travel into the past from Prime 2387 (the post-Nemesis Picard era) have also, you know....not happened?
You're forgetting the Yar Effect: time travelers can trigger events that change history without themselves being affected by those changes.

The archetypical example is Tasha Yar: in the Prime universe, Tasha gets slapped to death by a malevolent grease stain on some random planet nobody's ever heard of before. In the War Timeline, she survives for several years as Enterprise's tactical officer. Tasha Two travels back in time with the Enterprise-C thereby preventing a war with the Klingon Empire, in effect negating the universe that created her in the first place. Tasha Prime never actually makes that trip (grease stain, remember?) so Tasha Two should have ceased to exist the moment Enterprise-C went back through the void. Not only does she NOT cease to exist, she gets prison-raped by Romulans and has a half-Romulan daughter, whose exact background is accordingly difficult to explain.

The same thing happens to the Defiant in "Past Prologue" and to both the Enterprise-E and the Borg in "First Contact" (or did you wonder how the Borg managed to go back in time to stop the Phoenix's warp flight, thus preventing Starfleet from ever existing and subsequently preventing Picard from ever making the Borg aware of their existence in the first place?)

It's Trek time travel. It rarely makes sense and is full of contradictions and paradoxes, but as far as this lifelong fan is concerned Kirk and crew were on Earth in 1930, 1968, 1969 and 1986. Quark and the gang crashed near Roswell in 1947. Picard and his people visited 1893. Sisko, Bashir and Dax materialized in 2024. The 1701-E crew helped Cochrane make his first warp flight and defeated the Borg in 2063.

Etc., etc., etc.
Sure they were, just not in the alternate universe where STID takes place.
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Old May 28 2013, 10:30 AM   #193
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

The film directly references Star Trek: First Contact with the Phoenix, Star Trek: Enterprise with the Enterprise NX-01 model, and the episodes "First Flight" with the NX-alpha/beta model and "Home" with the offshore stadium.

I go with what the film writers say - that it was one timeline which branched in 2233 and events prior to that are shared. The excellent novel Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock explains it and other Trek time travels in detail, and the author most definitely did his homework.

That said, it's all fiction and open to interpretation. I can see how it may have changed the past, although as a fan of ENT and the novelverse, I like to go with their version of events. It's cool to think that if Pine's Kirk went back to 1986 he may bump into Shatner's Kirk, or that any number of versions of people from possible futures could come back (like we saw with Admiral Janeway in Voyager's finale)
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Old May 28 2013, 07:15 PM   #194
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It was SUPPOSED to do no such thing. It was IMPLIED primarily as charity to canon thumpers.
It was STATED OUTRIGHT by the writers. Imputations of motive may feel emotionally pleasing to you but never rise above pure speculation. You may not choose to accept the intent behind the plot, but that's a separate issue.

Sisko_is_my_captain wrote:
I don't recall all the race hoopla when they cast Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury in the Marvel movies.
That's because the Marvel movieverse was always intended to be completely separate from the comicverse or the universe of any other depiction of Fury such as the Hasslehoff one. It's not a comparable situation.

Nerys Myk wrote:
Indian isn't a race, it's a nationality. Using "classical" racial classifications Khan would be a Caucasian and might have spoken an Indo-Aryan language.
Whatever it is technically called, you know as well as I do that the Caucasoid race of northern India and what we refer to when we use the term "Caucasian" or "white" are different races.
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Old May 28 2013, 08:21 PM   #195
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The film directly references Star Trek: First Contact with the Phoenix, Star Trek: Enterprise with the Enterprise NX-01 model, and the episodes "First Flight" with the NX-alpha/beta model and "Home" with the offshore stadium.
Which merely confirms that the Narada arrived in the alternate timeline created by the Borg incursion in First Contact. The jury is still out as to what extent that timeline actually resembles the Primeline (or at least, the timeline of which TOS was originally a part).

That said, it's all fiction and open to interpretation. I can see how it may have changed the past, although as a fan of ENT and the novelverse, I like to go with their version of events. It's cool to think that if Pine's Kirk went back to 1986 he may bump into Shatner's Kirk, or that any number of versions of people from possible futures could come back (like we saw with Admiral Janeway in Voyager's finale)
But that's the thing: if Pinekirk runs into Shatnerkirk in 1986, then they are in effect entering the same timeline together. As a consequence they must both return to future of that timeline -- the SAME timeline -- which means one of them is going to be a timeline orphan.

That is the consequence of the Yar Effect. If something you do creates an alternate timeline, you can no longer return to the ORIGINAL timeline from which you started. In essence, the only way Shatnerkirk and Pinekirk could actually meet each other is if George and Gracie sent off the whale probe by telling it to go and blow up Hobus for some reason and it simply took a hundred years to make the trip; in that case, Shatnerkirk would return to his own future in a Klingon Bird of Prey, turn himself in to stand trial only to have the President ask "Stand trial for what? By the way, your son called, he wants to know when you'll be testing the upgraded Genesis device on Ceti-Alpha Five."
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