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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 26 2013, 04:12 PM   #76
Greg Cox
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Could you explain to me how it makes sense then that T'Pau should leave out that rather important detail to Kirk (especially after Spock tells her that Kirk does not understand that Spock will do what he must)?
You're attributing to T'Pau a concern for Kirk's welfare that is nowhere evident at this point in the episode. She's pissed that he is even there at all.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
For that matter, wouldn't Spock have let Kirk in on the possibility that he might have to fight someone to the death when he confided to Kirk in his quarters about what was happening to him?
And now you're attributing to Spock the ability to foresee the future. He had no way of knowing T'Pring would invoke the challenge, and certainly no way of foreseeing how Kirk could end up as his challenger.
The T'Pau thing bugs me, too, but not the Spock thing. My impression was that the whole challenge thing was an ancient ritual that was rarely invoked anymore, so Spock had no reason to expect that T'Pring was going to spring that surprise on them.

It's like that part in traditional wedding ceremonies where the preacher asks if anyone present has any objection to these two being joined in matrimony. "Speak now or forever hold your peace," etc.

These days nobody really expects anyone to stand up and object; it's just a formality. Ditto for with the Vulcan challenge ritual; Spock was surprised as anybody else when T'Pring actually chose the challenge option.

"Seriously? Nobody does that anymore?"
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Old May 26 2013, 06:46 PM   #77
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Spock was surprised as anybody else when T'Pring actually chose the challenge option.
While there was no reason for Spock to suspect at the time he beamed down, when the bridal party entered he could have begun to realize.

First official clue would have been the presence of Stonn. I think that it was fairly obvious that the original plan was that he was to be the champion. Everyone else in the bridal party had a role or duty. Why was Stonn walking in?

Second clue might have been to entrance of the weapons carriers, while it might be tradition to alway have weapon present, I do wonder if they are only brought if there is a anticipation of combat.

It might have not been the biggest of secrets (except to Spock) that T'Pring was going to contest the marriage.

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Old May 26 2013, 07:08 PM   #78
Greg Cox
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Spock was surprised as anybody else when T'Pring actually chose the challenge option.
While there was no reason for Spock to suspect at the time he beamed down, when the bridal party entered he could have begun to realize.

First official clue would have been the presence of Stonn. I think that it was fairly obvious that the original plan was that he was to be the champion. Everyone else in the bridal party had a role or duty. Why was Stonn walking in?

Second clue might have been to entrance of the weapons carriers, while it might be tradition to alway have weapon present, I do wonder if they are only brought if there is a anticipation of combat.

It might have not been the biggest of secrets (except to Spock) that T'Pring was going to contest the marriage.

My assumption is that the presence of weapons was (usually) ceremonial, as when, say, the Queen of England knights someone or when a military honor guard carries sabers or rifles at a funeral or whatever. Nobody is expecting actual combat!

(I was actually walking the dog by our local cemetery the other day when I was startled by gunfire. Turns out there was a military funeral going on.)

As for Stonn, Spock brought two guests to the ceremony, so why shouldn't T'Pring? For all Spock knew, Stonn was just a close friend or colleague of T'Pring's who was there to share this moment with her. It's not like Spock was up to date on her personal life.
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Old May 26 2013, 07:53 PM   #79
horatio83
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

I guess the ritual is rare but certainly not something which never occurs anymore.

It might seem ridiculous to us but so is arranged marriage. My explanation for the longevity of all these archaic cultural phenomena is that they are side-products of a dogma which must not be questioned, Vulcan orthodoxy and its key postulate of emotional suppression; the logic being: if Vulcans start to question these stupid old rituals what is to stop them from questioning emotional suppression?
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Old May 26 2013, 10:34 PM   #80
Greg Cox
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

It's a shame, really. I've been to at least a dozen weddings in my life and never once has anyone challenged anyone else to a battle to the death--or even stood up and objected to the marriage!
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Old May 27 2013, 10:18 AM   #81
Gov Kodos
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
It's a shame, really. I've been to at least a dozen weddings in my life and never once has anyone challenged anyone else to a battle to the death--or even stood up and objected to the marriage!
I don't mind it, they're not human, why should they think or act like humans in their culture?
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Old May 27 2013, 10:26 AM   #82
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Spock was surprised as anybody else when T'Pring actually chose the challenge option.
While there was no reason for Spock to suspect at the time he beamed down, when the bridal party entered he could have begun to realize.

First official clue would have been the presence of Stonn. I think that it was fairly obvious that the original plan was that he was to be the champion. Everyone else in the bridal party had a role or duty. Why was Stonn walking in?

Second clue might have been to entrance of the weapons carriers, while it might be tradition to alway have weapon present, I do wonder if they are only brought if there is a anticipation of combat.

It might have not been the biggest of secrets (except to Spock) that T'Pring was going to contest the marriage.

My assumption is that the presence of weapons was (usually) ceremonial, as when, say, the Queen of England knights someone or when a military honor guard carries sabers or rifles at a funeral or whatever. Nobody is expecting actual combat!

(I was actually walking the dog by our local cemetery the other day when I was startled by gunfire. Turns out there was a military funeral going on.)

As for Stonn, Spock brought two guests to the ceremony, so why shouldn't T'Pring? For all Spock knew, Stonn was just a close friend or colleague of T'Pring's who was there to share this moment with her. It's not like Spock was up to date on her personal life.
Yeah. I think the ceremony was going the way it usually went, as expected, until T'Pring held out her hand and stopped Spock from ringing the gong.
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Old May 27 2013, 08:34 PM   #83
Timo
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

One really wonders how much of this ceremony would have been part of routine pon farr management for the average Sjoek and T'Jane, and how much was unique to

a) a member of the exalted family of Sarek (or T'Pring's no doubt equally exalted lineage)
b) an inhabitant of Shi'Kahr, a potential backwater with quaint folkways
c) a member of the strange cult that still practices telepathic bonding against modern Vulcan ways

I really doubt every family could afford such an arena. And we didn't exactly see more than one next to Shi'Kahr - is it a single-family town, if not literally, then in the old Western style of being utterly ruled by the Boss Man and his sons (or perhaps the Boss Lady and her daughters)? Is T'Pau perhaps a native of Shi'Kahr? Is she a member of Spock's family, or T'Pring's, or even both?

Quite probably, all Vulcans take their pon farr shame to as distant a location as possible. Perhaps Shi'Kahr, on the edge of the desert, is a popular site for sex tourism because nobody goes there for any other reason? And Sarek's family just runs the ancient grounds for a variety of customers.

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Old May 27 2013, 10:33 PM   #84
horatio83
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

I agree that the place was unusual. We saw another marriage in ENT's "Home" taking place in the backyard of a house so I guess that Sarek being an influential figure has something to do with it. Vulcan is a meritocratic and not an egalitarian society so people with better skills, a better job and more power and responsibility also get fancier stuff like this place and the presence of T'Pau.
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Old May 28 2013, 07:02 PM   #85
Gary7
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Marsden wrote: View Post
Gary, did you listen to the episode?
Sorry for being late on the reply -- had other things going. Yes, I did watch and listen to the episode.

Of course, Kirk didn't realize it was a duel to the death initially... but even still after he learned of this, he was now aware that there would have to be a death in the outcome. Why even continue, knowing how Spock has the Vulcan strength advantage? He should have declined and appealed to T'PAU because he was NOT informed of the death requirement.

So Kirk took a huge risk going forward, as Spock would've killed him due to his mental state. In my interpretation, I believe Kirk was going for the angle of hoping to disable Spock in some way and then not go through with the killing, call it a draw.

Bones took a calculated risk, but he was against the wall, should he stand and do nothing? So he actually allowed Kirk to "quit" by drugging him. Honor was satisfied and no one died. The dialogue is quite clear.
I never suggested otherwise--of course it was prudent for Bones to try something. He did take a huge gamble. Spock was strangling Kirk and then Kirk goes limp due to the neural paralyzer injection. But Spock could've easily snapped Kirk's neck once his resistance went slack. Thankfully Spock didn't keep applying pressure and stopped once Kirk had passed out.

Anyway, I probably came across a bit more harsh than I intended.
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Old May 28 2013, 08:19 PM   #86
Marsden
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Anyway, I probably came across a bit more harsh than I intended.
Oh, no problem. What I got from your other post was that you missed those two sentences, if they were gone it would change the whole meaning of his involvment.
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Old June 1 2013, 04:23 AM   #87
Keith1701
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Having just watched Amok Time, there are a few things about the episode which made me feel it was badly written.

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.

And as for "Oh well they just don't talk about it"?

This thing that happens every 7 years to every member of their species that is so embarrassingly super-secret they never talk about it to non-Vulcans ever, yet they have this grand and pompous ritual ceremony where they invite their nearest and dearest to attend?

I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...

So T'Pring didn't want Spock anymore as she'd grown attached to another guy, she was taking a big risk that the victor of Spock's battle didn't decide to drag her along and make her live on the Enterprise anyway.
of course, this episode makes sense.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:19 AM   #88
RPJOB
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Timo wrote: View Post
One really wonders how much of this ceremony would have been part of routine pon farr management for the average Sjoek and T'Jane, and how much was unique to

a) a member of the exalted family of Sarek (or T'Pring's no doubt equally exalted lineage)
b) an inhabitant of Shi'Kahr, a potential backwater with quaint folkways
c) a member of the strange cult that still practices telepathic bonding against modern Vulcan ways

I really doubt every family could afford such an arena. And we didn't exactly see more than one next to Shi'Kahr - is it a single-family town, if not literally, then in the old Western style of being utterly ruled by the Boss Man and his sons (or perhaps the Boss Lady and her daughters)? Is T'Pau perhaps a native of Shi'Kahr? Is she a member of Spock's family, or T'Pring's, or even both?

Quite probably, all Vulcans take their pon farr shame to as distant a location as possible. Perhaps Shi'Kahr, on the edge of the desert, is a popular site for sex tourism because nobody goes there for any other reason? And Sarek's family just runs the ancient grounds for a variety of customers.

Timo Saloniemi
Spock mentions that the arena has been in his family land for two thousand Earth years. In that time I would imagine that his family has grown quite large. I imagine that it would be used for first marriages, such as Spock and T'Pring or Sarek and the mother of Sybok. Sarek's later weddings to Amanda or Perin were probably much less elaborate affairs. If each member of the family (or just the males as T'Pring is not at her family's shrine but at Spock's) on;y uses the space once in a lifetime it could be used by thousands of members of Spock's family over time. We may cut off our definition of family at Second or third cousin. Vulcan's may big much larger. In Yesteryear Spock impersonated a cousin and Sarek didn't recognize him but accepted him at his word. When your family numbers in the tens or hundreds of thousands you may nor be able to know even a fraction of them. We don't even know that the city in the background is actually Shi Kahr. It's based on the appearance from the animated series but it may be a typical design for cities of that size. Vulcan cities may be much more homogenous that Earth cities. Spock's family may have fist settled there but they are now probably spread all over the planet.
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Old August 27 2013, 04:24 PM   #89
ComicGuy89
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

I'm bringing this thread up to ask a simple question. While Pon Farr still confuses me like mad, I'll ignore that for now. What I want to know is, how did Kirk and company get away with tricking T'pau's entire party into thinking Kirk was dead? I'm not sure how pleased T'pau would be to know that there was no duel to the death after all, and that Bones tricked everyone into thinking Kirk died.
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Old August 27 2013, 04:44 PM   #90
MacLeod
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

It might be splitting the line but people can die and be brought back say via defibrillator.
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