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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 25 2013, 05:27 AM   #61
BillJ
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Amok Time is brilliant. Back before all Trek aliens were basically humanity with shit glued on their faces.
You must have missed the first season, then.
Yeah. I did. I only bought it on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray so it would look pretty on my shelf...
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Old May 25 2013, 06:10 PM   #62
Nerys Myk
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Amok Time is brilliant. Back before all Trek aliens were basically humanity with shit glued on their faces.
You must have missed the first season, then.
Yeah. I did. I only bought it on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray so it would look pretty on my shelf...
Yep, TOS humanoid Aliens tended to be wig and make up aliens rather than shit glued to their face aliens. (when they weren't humans in funny clothes). The Andorians and the Tellerites being notable exceptions.
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Old May 26 2013, 02:01 AM   #63
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

There are a lot of unanswered questions in Amok Time, which probably makes for good fiction.

Stonn didn't appear to be experiencing pon farr, yet he wanted T'Pring and T'Pring wanted him. If the victor had freed T'Pring, would she have married Stonn and lived happily ever after?

T'Pring said if Spock did not free her, then he would be gone, she would have his name and his property, and Stonn would still be there. Convenient for T'Pring, to have both an absent husband and a lover. Is this sort of thing acceptable on Vulcan?

Spock and T'Pring had undergone the bonding ceremony at age seven where their minds were locked together so that they would come together at the proper time. The ceremony worked on Spock, a half-Vulcan. Didn't it work on T'Pring?

Actually, I always thought T'Pring got a bad rap.
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Old May 26 2013, 04:08 AM   #64
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
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Besides, why does logic preclude fights to the death?
It needn't, but it does seem a trifle odd that T'Pau would leave that important bit of information out (especially after Spock tries to explain to her by saying that Kirk "knows not...").

I think the UFP could have brought up charges against T'Pau!
No.
Why not? Willfully endangering the life of a Starfleet Captain has got to be grounds for (at the very least) a reprimand of sorts.
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Old May 26 2013, 04:13 AM   #65
Nerys Myk
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post

It needn't, but it does seem a trifle odd that T'Pau would leave that important bit of information out (especially after Spock tries to explain to her by saying that Kirk "knows not...").

I think the UFP could have brought up charges against T'Pau!
No.
Why not? Willfully endangering the life of a Starfleet Captain has got to be grounds for (at the very least) a reprimand of sorts.
You don't piss off the Vulcans. It's in the UFP Constitution.
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Old May 26 2013, 04:19 AM   #66
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post

It needn't, but it does seem a trifle odd that T'Pau would leave that important bit of information out (especially after Spock tries to explain to her by saying that Kirk "knows not...").

I think the UFP could have brought up charges against T'Pau!
No.
Why not? Willfully endangering the life of a Starfleet Captain has got to be grounds for (at the very least) a reprimand of sorts.
Kirk had volunteered to obey Vulcan law. So, no.

Besides, who in here really thinks that T'Pau couldn't see that McCoy might be up to tricks with his hypo? No doubt she was concerned primarily with making sure the forms of the ritual were obeyed. She had no other dog in the fight.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:04 AM   #67
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
No.
Why not? Willfully endangering the life of a Starfleet Captain has got to be grounds for (at the very least) a reprimand of sorts.
Kirk had volunteered to obey Vulcan law. So, no.

Besides, who in here really thinks that T'Pau couldn't see that McCoy might be up to tricks with his hypo? No doubt she was concerned primarily with making sure the forms of the ritual were obeyed. She had no other dog in the fight.
I agree that Kirk had to obey Vulcan law, but the full context of the situation was not made known to him. I mean really, shouldn't T'Pau have at least said something to Kirk like, "by the way, if thee loseth the combat it means thou shalt be deadeth. Art thou sureth thou wisheth to accept the challenge, or wilt thou punketh out?"

For that matter, wouldn't Spock have let Kirk in on the possibility that he might have to fight someone to the death when he confided to Kirk in his quarters about what was happening to him? It just seems like a gaping hole in logic in the story line...or lazy writing.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:05 AM   #68
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
It just seems like a gaping hole in logic in the story line...or lazy writing.
No to both.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:11 AM   #69
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
It just seems like a gaping hole in logic in the story line...or lazy writing.
No to both.
Could you explain to me how it makes sense then that T'Pau should leave out that rather important detail to Kirk (especially after Spock tells her that Kirk does not understand that Spock will do what he must)?
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Old May 26 2013, 05:29 AM   #70
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Could you explain to me how it makes sense then that T'Pau should leave out that rather important detail to Kirk (especially after Spock tells her that Kirk does not understand that Spock will do what he must)?
You're attributing to T'Pau a concern for Kirk's welfare that is nowhere evident at this point in the episode. She's pissed that he is even there at all.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
For that matter, wouldn't Spock have let Kirk in on the possibility that he might have to fight someone to the death when he confided to Kirk in his quarters about what was happening to him?
And now you're attributing to Spock the ability to foresee the future. He had no way of knowing T'Pring would invoke the challenge, and certainly no way of foreseeing how Kirk could end up as his challenger.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:35 AM   #71
Nerys Myk
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

It's a TV show that needs to build mystery and suspense. They aren't going to let the cat out of the bag all at once.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:42 AM   #72
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
It just seems like a gaping hole in logic in the story line...or lazy writing.
No to both.
Could you explain to me how it makes sense then that T'Pau should leave out that rather important detail to Kirk (especially after Spock tells her that Kirk does not understand that Spock will do what he must)?
Two things.

First, T'Pau affirms that the challenge was lawfully accepted. Therefore, under Vulcan law, it was not necessary for her to spell out all the consequences. Humans have a similar principle. That should be the end of it right there.

But, second, a recurring theme in the episode is that Vulcans are very secretive about their barbaric mating rituals. As a high-ranking Vulcan, T'Pau would not violate that trust. From the dialog, evidently Kirk could refuse the challenge only by claiming status as a non-Vulcan. That catch-22 means that the humans who beamed down with Spock could only be all the way in or all the way out of the ritual; the need to have it all explained in order to make a decision would mean automatic de facto refusal of the challenge, with no further explanation whatsoever, to keep the secrets. In that case, another champion would have been selected. Kirk didn't want that, because he was trying to save Spock, so he made a foolish assumption, but in any case the one that gave Spock the best chance. T'Pau's lips had to be sealed in order to protect Vulcan customs from outsiders.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:43 AM   #73
Gov Kodos
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Could you explain to me how it makes sense then that T'Pau should leave out that rather important detail to Kirk (especially after Spock tells her that Kirk does not understand that Spock will do what he must)?
You're attributing to T'Pau a concern for Kirk's welfare that is nowhere evident at this point in the episode. She's pissed that he is even there at all.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
For that matter, wouldn't Spock have let Kirk in on the possibility that he might have to fight someone to the death when he confided to Kirk in his quarters about what was happening to him?
And now you're attributing to Spock the ability to foresee the future. He had no way of knowing T'Pring would invoke the challenge, and certainly no way of foreseeing how Kirk could end up as his challenger.
And she'd given Kirk the opportunity to decline the challenge since he wasn't Vulcan.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It's a TV show that needs to build mystery and suspense. They aren't going to let the cat out of the bag all at once.
Indeed not, it wouldn't be half as interesting a deconstruction of the stoic Vulcan mystique.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:45 AM   #74
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It's a TV show that needs to build mystery and suspense. They aren't going to let the cat out of the bag all at once.
I understand that, but the way the cat was let out of the bag doesn't really fit with how one would expect it to be done. It seems like an important detail like that should have been made known to an "outworlder" who found himself in Kirk's situation. It shows very bad form on the part of the Vulcans and yes I think someone as powerful as T'Pau should show some concern for a high-ranking member of Starfleet, if not for diplomatic reasons than at least out of a sense of good taste and manners.
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Old May 26 2013, 05:50 AM   #75
Gov Kodos
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

No she doesn't. She asked Spock what he thought he was doing bringing outworlders to one of their private ceremonies. She's there to see the rules of the ceremony are followed, not to be a tour guide. Kirk didn't ask and it's doubtful T'Pau would have answered as the ceremony is not for outworlders. Asking would have been seen as cowardice, certainly as unwillingness to follow the ceremonial behavior which Spock had promised they would do. Kirk also is unwilling to back down in front of T'Pau. Her importance in the Federation as 'all of Vulcan in one package' sets Kirk's sense of duty into overdrive. Backing down in front of her would be an embarrassment for him, for Spock, and for Starfleet as one of their captains.
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