RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,383
Posts: 5,505,087
Members: 25,126
Currently online: 506
Newest member: Captain Allen

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 19 2013, 11:47 PM   #1
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Adm. Marcus postponed the attack on the Enterprise when he saw Carol on board, but went on with his orders once she was removed. She really played no pertinent role on the Vengeance, and ended up being beamed right back.

I felt it would have been a more powerful scene -- and given more meaning to Adm Marcus' convictions -- if he had chosen to sacrifice Carol in lieu of his desire for total war. It would have also provided an antithesis to the theme of "family first." Scotty nullified the attack by disabling the Vengeance anyway, so it's not like she would have been killed. Plus, it would have really revealed how much of a bastard he was.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 12:13 AM   #2
Nightowl1701
Captain
 
Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus. Total bastards don't get to rise to the top of Starfleet, even after Nero. Marcus didn't start out a bad guy, and he'd embarked on Section 31 with noble intentions (protect the Federation from another Nero). Even his minimal crew on the Vengeance would've looked askance at a guy willing to murder his own daughter in cold blood.

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!" And Khan and his people were, in Marcus' mind and at that moment, an even bigger threat to the Federation than even the Klingons. They had to go, and if Kirk wouldn't kill 'em or hand them over, hey, friendly fire happens sometimes...
Nightowl1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:22 AM   #3
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey. Irrational fear and paranoia strip us of what it means to be feeling, caring, and civilized.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:27 AM   #4
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.
So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:29 AM   #5
Santa Claus
Believe
 
Santa Claus's Avatar
 
Location: J. Allen's Rooftop
Send a message via ICQ to Santa Claus Send a message via AIM to Santa Claus Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Santa Claus Send a message via Yahoo to Santa Claus
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

beamMe wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.
So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
__________________
---------
"I believe... I believe... It's silly, but I believe." - Susan Walker
---------
❄ A Joyful Holiday Season to You All! ❄

Santa Claus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:46 AM   #6
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:51 AM   #7
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
"Is there anything you wouldn't do for your family?"

The film had more than just the terrorism/war/drone-theme.
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:56 AM   #8
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!"
He also had illusions of grandeur in leading the war.
KittyDuran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:20 AM   #9
imranbecks
Lieutenant Commander
 
imranbecks's Avatar
 
Location: Singapore
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Actually, up until the point with her on the bridge talking to Marcus trying to change his mind, I actually thought Carol was a mole sent by her father... I was suspicious of her character at the beginning since I barely knew about her character from TOS as I never saw all the episodes. I thought it was a father/daughter plan to attack the Enterprise from the inside..hahaha
imranbecks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:32 AM   #10
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?

The needs of the many..
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 07:07 AM   #11
Santa Claus
Believe
 
Santa Claus's Avatar
 
Location: J. Allen's Rooftop
Send a message via ICQ to Santa Claus Send a message via AIM to Santa Claus Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Santa Claus Send a message via Yahoo to Santa Claus
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
No, that wasn't the whole point of the story, there were multiple story points in this movie. The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.
__________________
---------
"I believe... I believe... It's silly, but I believe." - Susan Walker
---------
❄ A Joyful Holiday Season to You All! ❄

Santa Claus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2013, 06:42 AM   #12
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

I can't believe there's actually an argument against Admiral Marcus being a multi-layered antagonist.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.
"There is no 'supposed to be.' It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:23 AM   #13
Mountie1988
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

I loved it when Carol slapped her father. All the power which came along with his rank and ship did not save him from his daughter's outrage.
Mountie1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:29 AM   #14
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

J. Allen wrote: View Post
The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.
Why does it matter what these people "think"? Doesn't make it true. Doesn't make their actions right. Just because they say they're not evil, doesn't mean shit.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:30 AM   #15
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

teacake wrote: View Post
The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?
He'd let her die.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.