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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: 'Who' is John Hurt
The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell) 9 9.09%
The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War 57 57.58%
The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor 3 3.03%
Something else entirely 30 30.30%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 24 2013, 07:48 PM   #151
Christopher
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
Didn't we see the second Doctor running around the TARDIS as a memory, or whatever?
In the Clara montages, we saw him running through a park in the heavy fur coat he sometimes wore; I think he ran right past the Eighth Doctor. In the final scene, I'm not sure if he was one of the multiple Doctors (or photo doubles thereof) that we saw running through the, err, mindscape. However, Clara did say that she'd seen all eleven known Doctors.
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Old May 24 2013, 09:24 PM   #152
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I definitely HATE the "secret regeneration between 8 and 9" idea. And I really hope they don't go there.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:57 AM   #153
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

You could get John Hurt to play Old Eight instead of McGann to show that he stayed in that form for a loooooong time.
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Old May 25 2013, 05:11 AM   #154
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

It is better to have a secret regeneration between 2 and 3?

Secret regeneration between 8 and 9 has a built in story to tell, and a good one, about the Doctor gone to the dark side to protect his people and how he came back from it.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:07 PM   #155
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

While I agree what The Doctor did during the time war would be an excellent story, I'm not certain it is a story that should be told. Nothing I'll see on screen would live up to my active imagination of who are the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King and his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres, or what the Moment is.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:31 PM   #156
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

JRoss wrote: View Post
You could get John Hurt to play Old Eight instead of McGann to show that he stayed in that form for a loooooong time.
There are several problems with saying that Hurt is an aged McGann.

For one thing, the dialogue indicates that Clara saw McGann's face, yet she doesn't recognize Hurt's face, which makes it unlikely that Hurt=aged McGann.

The dialogue also seems to indicates that, because he "broke the promise," that whole incarnation was tainted. Whatever good that Doctor may have done, what that Doctor "did without choice, in the name of peace and sanity" overshadows the good. If the Doctor thought of his McGann incarnation in that way, would he have shown it to Craig? Would John Smith have doodled it in the Journal of Impossible Things?
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Old May 25 2013, 06:10 PM   #157
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

She encounters Eight just before two Plus he was one of the Doctor's we saw in the previous episode - hardly a secret.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:16 PM   #158
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
My theory: John Hurt is the Second Doctor.

Rationale: At the end of "The War Games" the Doctor is sentenced to exile and "a change of appearance". By the time we see Jon Pertwee in "The Spearhead from Space" we ASSUME that this follows immediately and Troughton directly became Pertwee.

I assert that Troughton's "appearance was changed" into John Hurt
Wouldn't that make John Hurt the Third Doctor?
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Old May 25 2013, 06:24 PM   #159
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.
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Old May 25 2013, 08:48 PM   #160
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.
Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."
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Old May 25 2013, 09:29 PM   #161
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.
Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."
Very interesting. I wouldn't be against such a thing, because I do love being able to reconcile changed premises in-universe. But if we assume that Hartnell-to-Troughton was a rejuvenation and Troughton-to-Pertwee was just a change of appearance, how do we address the changes in personality? I suppose rejuvination could effect one's prersonality, personalities change with age. But the Second and Third Doctors have very different personalities (and heights!) How would that be explained?
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Old May 25 2013, 09:36 PM   #162
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
But the Second and Third Doctors have very different personalities (and heights!) How would that be explained?
Maybe the Time Lords have Carlos Wu' magical autodoc?

Okay, that's not going to make any sense to anyone who's not up on Larry Niven's Known Space. There's this thing called the autodoc, and it's a coffin-like thing that can heal a person of anything, including beheading. Yes, seriously. Bey Schaeffer got his head chopped off, the head was put in the magical autodoc, and it grew him a new body that was shorter and not an albino.

As for the change in personality, I think that's overblown. It's a facet of the JNT era, but with the first four Doctors I don't really see anything that one would do or behave that the other three would not.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:53 PM   #163
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post

As for the change in personality, I think that's overblown. It's a facet of the JNT era, but with the first four Doctors I don't really see anything that one would do or behave that the other three would not.
Hmm interesting.. I may have to think on that one for a while before commenting. It seems an odd way of looking at it, but it just may be because I've been conditioned to think of each incarnation as having a different personality, so I'm seeing differences where there aren't any of significance.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:24 PM   #164
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I don't buy it. Pertwee is pretty much the opposite of Troughton in behaviour and mannerisms. One's a hobo, one's trying to be the king of style and class.

Last edited by DalekJim; May 25 2013 at 10:34 PM.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:33 PM   #165
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.
Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."
But the idea they are the same "individual" (whatever that actually means with timelords) is removed earlier than that - in the Third Doctors.
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