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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 25 2013, 07:26 PM   #121
Shilliam Watner
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I want the Enterprise crew to confront the Vampire Cloud in the next movie.
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Old May 25 2013, 07:29 PM   #122
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Shilliam Watner wrote: View Post
I want the Enterprise crew to confront the Vampire Cloud in the next movie.
Obsession would make a kick-ass big screen outing. But I think flashbacks would be huge in making it work and I don't think this version of Kirk faced any adversity on that scale while at the Academy.
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Old May 25 2013, 08:16 PM   #123
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
And the Borg are not really a villain. They're a race; a set piece. And they're primarily known for their association with the next generation. It seems odd to abandon the next generation crew, but then to use their same trappings.
You could argue that they were not a villain originally, and were more like a force of nature, but once they introduced the Queen with her own independent thoughts, emotions, and shortcomings, they did become a villain, or at least were led by one. Hopefully they'll go back to the original force of nature concept if they do decide to reuse them.

While it's true that the Borg are most associated with TNG, VOY comes a close second, with ENT and DS9 bringing up the rear with all of them having Borg appearances. So only the TOS series/TOS-era films & film segments and nuTrek have not had a Borg appearance yet, and even then, there are indirect connections and tie-in materials which have featured the Borg (El Aurian refugees fleeing the Borg on the Ent-B, V'Ger if you go by Roddenberry's hint about the planet of living machines, the Borg technology on the Narada, etc.).

I was burned out with all the Borg appearances before and the way they were defanged, but now that the TNG-era films and series are probably dead, I wouldn't mind at all seeing them get a reboot of their own, especially if they can become the faceless unstoppable menace they were originally.
Speaking for myself I guess, I'm tired of the Borg. I'm tired of them turning up in every game or expanded media effort since Next Generation. They are the go-to antagonists for almost everything in Star Trek nowadays. If you need a large-scale cosmic problem, Blame it on the Borg.

The borg aren't even that interesting or impressive as antagonists. Stiff-bodied drones that either ignore you or take over your body and are lead by a monologue-spouting queen. They have no other character than this portrayal so I find them really boring and one-dimensional. The whole core of their menace is taking you over, being unstoppable, and I guess body horror.

The Klingons on the other hand don't rely on being invincible, body-horror absorption, and have many personalities and faces to make dialogue and characterization interesting. Becuase they're not unstoppable it means their plans are more crafty and interesting than just move in and assimilate. Moreover it doesn't seem like a Magic Bullet is needed to defeat them, and it's not so much of a let down when they are.

The most enjoyable Trek-eras, in my opinion, are ones where this omnicidal cosmic horror are not present or considered in the setting. So I'm hoping we won't run into the Borg, because I think Star Trek is more fun without them in it taking over everything.
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Old May 25 2013, 08:33 PM   #124
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I have this idea that the Klingons were really set back by Nero's attack.

Didn't it look likea Klingon moon (Praxis?) was detonated before its due time?

Khan wasn't supposed to be found this early, so the timeline is rather out of sorts. Spock Prime should have ignored the temporal prime directive and mind melded with new Spock, so as to have him able to explain plot points to the audience and have a leg up.

So this universe is already accelerated by Nero's tampering--leading up to a new singularity. The Borg are found earlier.
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Old May 25 2013, 08:36 PM   #125
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Wouldn't it be great if the next menace was a fleet of Planet Killers that had destroyed the Borg completely and turned their sights on the Federation next?
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Old May 25 2013, 09:14 PM   #126
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Locutus, what do you think the odds are of them staying faceless and without a Borg Queen if used in a movie?
Probably pretty slim.

They usually want the audience to connect with the hero's and the villain's faces to humanize them and so you can see them emote. Which is why we so often see Spider-Man and Iron Man and their enemies inexplicably taking their face masks off in the middle of a fight. They'll even give computer programs faces sometimes to convey emotion. It's been a while since we've had a faceless "villain" like the HAL-9000 with just the single red eye, but even that still managed to follow you around the room. Or Darth Vader with the unmoving facial expression that still managed to show anguish when Luke was being electrocuted by the play of light and shadow across his face and the tilt of his head.

So there's a pretty strong incentive to give your villain an avatar, a face or a representative we can relate to and fear because they're like us, but different. Picard as Locutus was the precursor to the Borg Queen in that respect, though with less individuality and emotion.

But I thought that the lack of that was what made the Borg so terrifying and alien at first, even though they're not actually even a species, but rather a collection of them. They had people aboard their ships, but they were little more than larger versions of nanoprobes themselves; tools to keep the "body" of the Cube operational and perform tasks, and act as the individual microprocessors in what was essentially one giant computer.

There's no negotiating with something you can't relate to in any way, that doesn't see you as anything other than a resource to possess or an obstacle to destroy.

Norsehound wrote: View Post
Speaking for myself I guess, I'm tired of the Borg. I'm tired of them turning up in every game or expanded media effort since Next Generation. They are the go-to antagonists for almost everything in Star Trek nowadays. If you need a large-scale cosmic problem, Blame it on the Borg.

The borg aren't even that interesting or impressive as antagonists. Stiff-bodied drones that either ignore you or take over your body and are lead by a monologue-spouting queen. They have no other character than this portrayal so I find them really boring and one-dimensional. The whole core of their menace is taking you over, being unstoppable, and I guess body horror.

The Klingons on the other hand don't rely on being invincible, body-horror absorption, and have many personalities and faces to make dialogue and characterization interesting. Becuase they're not unstoppable it means their plans are more crafty and interesting than just move in and assimilate. Moreover it doesn't seem like a Magic Bullet is needed to defeat them, and it's not so much of a let down when they are.

The most enjoyable Trek-eras, in my opinion, are ones where this omnicidal cosmic horror are not present or considered in the setting. So I'm hoping we won't run into the Borg, because I think Star Trek is more fun without them in it taking over everything.
That's fair, and I understand completely where you're coming from. I just think they can still be useful and entertaining as antagonist, and ideally I'd make some tweaks to them if I could.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:17 PM   #127
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker
Eh.. what ?

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
You could argue that they were not a villain originally, and were more like a force of nature, but once they introduced the Queen with her own independent thoughts, emotions, and shortcomings, they did become a villain, or at least were led by one.
That's certainly the idea behind the Queen, and the actress was fine in the role, but I despise that idea.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:41 PM   #128
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

^ I don't despise the idea, and you can still do interesting stories with a Queen or a Locutus character, I would just prefer to do without them if they ever brought back the Borg.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker
Eh.. what ?
Khan and the Joker are the most iconic, memorable, and widely known villains of their respective franchises, they both previously appeared in highly regarded and successful films of said franchises, and they were both last onscreen in the 80s, which puts some distance between that and their reboots.

It's not the first time I've seen the comparison made between reusing Khan and reusing the Joker, in fact I've made the comparison myself elsewhere. I don't know if he was really their inspiration for bringing back Khan or not, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that played some part in their decision.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:47 PM   #129
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Belz... wrote: View Post
What, the whale probe ? I wouldn't call that an antagonist.
From Wiki:

The antagonist may also represent a major threat or obstacle to the main character by their very existence, without necessarily deliberately targeting him or her.
But I was obviously talking about Bob. Duh!

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker, as in that they had to use the most recognizable villain*. But what is the rationale for the Borg?
Cinematic escalation.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Picking the Borg seems somewhat fanboyish.
How so?

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On top of that, since a villain seems to be a necessity, that would almost have to not be a Borg Queen type because wasn't that one of the big criticisms of First Contact? That the Borg Queen was weakening the concept of the Borg and making it seem very cliche? When the Borg were at their best, they were not characters, they were basically zombies or set pieces, giving them real terror. Giving them a very human face full of many human flaws removed any of that.
I never had a problem with the Queen per se. It was how they used her that was always the problem, which is too bad because I think both Krige and Thompson did a great job.

People like to rave about how great early Borg where, but really, they were the conceptual equivalent to Dystopian Fiction for Dummies. While they may have presented a potentially interesting premise, it's was never something that would be greatly missed. And, honestly, too much would have to be sacrificed to really make the concept work.

OTOH, the Borg's very existence was a paradoxical conundrum. You can't have an entire race of automatons that have a working consciousness and are self-aware.

Locutus was the first answer to this problem. But after that was done, they couldn't dive into that bin again, so they went with the more obvious hive queen.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Zombie movies are definitely prevalent, but they most certainly do not sell.
Only because most zombies films are restricted to a unpopular film genre. The few zombie movies that have branched-out into other genres have been very successful.


Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
"Because Nero," won't cut it.
Sure it will. There's a logical succession:

"Nero blew up Vulcan. Marcus made a new ship."

In the next movie:

"Marcus made the new ship with some alien technology Admiral Archer discovered back in the day."

"And it cannae help him find beagle?!"

So on and so forth.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
It just feels out of place. The analogy I've used before is, let's say for some awful reason they decided to reboot Cheers. Then for some reason they decided to focus a good portion of a story in Seattle with Frasier's family and radio show. That's what it feels like to do the Borg.
Actually, it would be more like remaking Cheers, and this time have Niles come in with Frasier from time to time.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
what do you think the odds are of them staying faceless and without a Borg Queen if used in a movie?
Five words:

"Jenny Lawrence, Star Trek poster."

Or:

"There will be a queen."
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Old May 25 2013, 09:51 PM   #130
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Belz... wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker
Eh.. what ?
Both people here and the writers made comparisons between this sequel and the Dark Knight before the movie was released. The correlation to gather from that was that the writers were going to pick a villain who was comparable to the Joker. There really isn't one, but the closest thing to a memorable villain to the general public (at least for the original series) was Khan.

Both characters somewhat represent the bottom of the bag of tricks. Not many other characters will have as much of a draw, if that's the ultimate goal.

Yet everyone keeps asking this question of "How do you top Khan?" as if it absolutely has to be topped. Batman didn't bother to do it. They didn't pick a villain that was known to the public, and they didn't try and top anything. They just tried to tell a story that fit in with how they pictured their trilogy to work.

I'm guessing this is where the Batman analogies will stop.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:52 PM   #131
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
You can't have an entire race of automatons that have a working consciousness and are self-aware.
Small nitpick: the Borg were not automatons until the queen came about, at which point they started to be called "drones", as if the bee analogy hadn't been done to death already.

I admit, however, that the borg should have remained a one-time or two-time thing, no more. After the Best of Both Worlds they should have left them alone.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:11 PM   #132
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Belz... wrote: View Post
Small nitpick: the Borg were not automatons until
Even in "Q Who" they were nothing more than robotic zombies.

They (figuratively) sucked brains and walked with lumbering arms and a rigid gait.

You know what they say about ducks.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:15 PM   #133
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
How so?
It just strikes me that way. It's like taking two concepts that were pretty far removed from each other and bridging the gap, and then having to do a whole bunch of shoehorning to make it work. In a sense, STID struck me that way a little bit, but it wasn't nearly on the scale of what the Borg would be.

Sure it will. There's a logical succession:
It just requires too many leaps for me. Like they already jumped through a bunch of hoops to get the first movie done. Fortunately there was a lot less of that in STID. I'd prefer they stick to that and just pick a story that flows from the last two in some way. Cater to a story that works rather than just picking by race/setting.

Actually, it would be more like remaking Cheers, and this time have Niles come in with Frasier from time to time.
Except Niles is a character. The Borg aren't characters (with the exception of the queen). They're drones or set pieces. They're a piece of science fiction used to tell a story, and nothing more. That's why I compared sets, not characters. And it's not even so much the setting in terms of place, but of time.

Now if they used the queen, then yeah, that comparison doesn't really work as well. But I thought the general consensus was that the Borg Queen as a concept neutered the Borg and made them less special. I understand why there was a need for her inclusion, but it's not exactly something that I'm begging for more of. Especially, the petty, vindictive, arrogant Borg Queen.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:16 PM   #134
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

The Whale Probe in STIV was certainly an antagonist, albeit an unintentional and unconventional one, but arguably the bigger antagonist of the film was 20th century humans. They're the ones who hunted the Humpback Whales to extinction, thus prompting the Probe to remain in Earth orbit awaiting a response, and they're the ones who most consistently represented an obstacle or threat to our heroes completing their mission throughout the film.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:29 PM   #135
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

No Borg were British !!! More khan more Klingons !!! More space epicness !!!!
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