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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 25 2013, 11:02 AM   #106
teacake
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I'm not over the Borg like most people are but I would love to something else.
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Old May 25 2013, 11:48 AM   #107
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I haven't come across anyone mention the idea of playing with the chronology of events the way the second and third Jason Bourne movies did; ISTR it came up often when in the early stages of conceptualizing this latest ST movie. Most people assumed that meant cramming large chunks of this movie's narrative in between scenes from Star Trek (2009).

The thing is, everyone was eyeballing that gap between the Enterprise escaping the red matter black hole and Kirk's promotion to captain; yet with this new movie there's a massive gap of time between Kirk's recovery scene and the re-christening/memorial scene that's more obviously suggesting the Bourne influence.

The next movie might very well play out the aftermath of Wrath of Khan in the sense that in the "third" movie shows the Enterprise in a state of disrepair, yet pressed into service out of dire need.

Also, anything could have happened with the Klingons. As some people pointed out, a very serious potential diplomatic incident occurred with the Enterprise's actions in Klingon space, which demands immediate follow up.

And Khan is shown to be re-frozen as a cutaway that is paired with Kirk's speech at the re-christening. The details of what happens to Khan between getting knocked out by Spock and then getting put back into cryosleep are something of a question mark (that admittedly doesn't have to be answered right away, but it looks like some space has been left there to fill in some blanks.
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Old May 25 2013, 02:06 PM   #108
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins]

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

I don't agree, and I think there've been plenty of successful movies without a villain.
There have been plenty of successful movies without a villain. There have not been many (any?) summer blockbuster without a villain.

Even TVH had an antagonist.
What, the whale probe ? I wouldn't call that an antagonist.

Anyway, I don't mind villains and antagonists. I'm just saying it'd be a nice change of pace.

propita wrote: View Post
Face it, what we really need is a damn tv show for the five year mission with movies of the "big missions."
Yes !
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Old May 25 2013, 03:19 PM   #109
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker, as in that they had to use the most recognizable villain*. But what is the rationale for the Borg? Batman writers knew they couldn't top the Joker, so they just picked the villain that could best suit Batman's story arc. I would hope that's what these writers would do, but I'm not sure if they would. Picking the Borg seems somewhat fanboyish.

On top of that, since a villain seems to be a necessity, that would almost have to not be a Borg Queen type because wasn't that one of the big criticisms of First Contact? That the Borg Queen was weakening the concept of the Borg and making it seem very cliche? When the Borg were at their best, they were not characters, they were basically zombies or set pieces, giving them real terror. Giving them a very human face full of many human flaws removed any of that.



*despite all the secrecy and not even marketing it that way.
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Old May 25 2013, 03:25 PM   #110
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker, as in that they had to use the most recognizable villain*. But what is the rationale for the Borg?
Zombie movies sell. That and the Borg are probably Trek's second most well known villain.
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Old May 25 2013, 03:32 PM   #111
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I hope the JJprise goes destroyed (i really don't like this enterprise)
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Old May 25 2013, 03:53 PM   #112
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
So I know the real world parallel rationale for Khan was the Joker, as in that they had to use the most recognizable villain*. But what is the rationale for the Borg?
Zombie movies sell. That and the Borg are probably Trek's second most well known villain.
Zombie movies are definitely prevalent, but they most certainly do not sell.

And the Borg are not really a villain. They're a race; a set piece. And they're primarily known for their association with the next generation. It seems odd to abandon the next generation crew, but then to use their same trappings.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:00 PM   #113
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

The next movie could be during their 5 year mission, perhaps with a known TOS villain we've seen before.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:00 PM   #114
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
It seems odd to abandon the next generation crew, but then to use their same trappings.
Why? It's all Star Trek.

Star Trek showed humanity having an uneasy relationship with technology long before the Borg showed up. Plus, a Borg story would allow them to flesh out Science Officer 0718.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:16 PM   #115
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

BillJ wrote: View Post
Why? It's all Star Trek.
It just feels fanboyish, and it feels like it would take more convoluted explanations to make it work. "Because Nero," won't cut it.

You spoke of a second best known adversary, but in reality, the first best known adversary (not Khan) is the Klingons. STID sets up the Klingons and they seem a more fitting piece. Granted, we've seen a lot more of the Klingons in the movies, it just has the better potential to fit this crew without seeming fanboyish. They can actually have a good villain without gutting the whole concept of the race. And they can probably make a more poignant piece about a war or the prospect of one.

It just feels out of place. The analogy I've used before is, let's say for some awful reason they decided to reboot Cheers. Then for some reason they decided to focus a good portion of a story in Seattle with Frasier's family and radio show. That's what it feels like to do the Borg.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:07 PM   #116
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
And the Borg are not really a villain. They're a race; a set piece. And they're primarily known for their association with the next generation. It seems odd to abandon the next generation crew, but then to use their same trappings.
You could argue that they were not a villain originally, and were more like a force of nature, but once they introduced the Queen with her own independent thoughts, emotions, and shortcomings, they did become a villain, or at least were led by one. Hopefully they'll go back to the original force of nature concept if they do decide to reuse them.

While it's true that the Borg are most associated with TNG, VOY comes a close second, with ENT and DS9 bringing up the rear with all of them having Borg appearances. So only the TOS series/TOS-era films & film segments and nuTrek have not had a Borg appearance yet, and even then, there are indirect connections and tie-in materials which have featured the Borg (El Aurian refugees fleeing the Borg on the Ent-B, V'Ger if you go by Roddenberry's hint about the planet of living machines, the Borg technology on the Narada, etc.).

I was burned out with all the Borg appearances before and the way they were defanged, but now that the TNG-era films and series are probably dead, I wouldn't mind at all seeing them get a reboot of their own, especially if they can become the faceless unstoppable menace they were originally.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:09 PM   #117
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Batman writers knew they couldn't top the Joker, so they just picked the villain that could best suit Batman's story arc.
Star Trek writers don't do things like that.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:11 PM   #118
Ryan8bit
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

Locutus, what do you think the odds are of them staying faceless and without a Borg Queen if used in a movie?
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Old May 25 2013, 06:42 PM   #119
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

My Trek friends are sick of hearing me say it, but I think a reworking of the TNG episode 'The Chase' would work really well on the big screen. You could bring together different races (Klingons, Romulans, maybe substitute the Cardassians for the Vulcans); have some really good action/fight sequences; and top it off with some thoughtful science-fiction on a strange new world.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:45 PM   #120
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Re: Star Trek III - The [Speculation Begins] (Spoilers)

I would have loved to see a TNG era film with Cardassians updated to the big screen. You know... shinier metal armor instead of obvious rubber armor, and updated make up for the necks, and stuff like that.
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