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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 25 2013, 01:39 AM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Riker was faced with an impossible situation. He had only seconds to act. He couldn't take the chance that Yuta might get away - it was all happening too fast. So even if he set the phaser a bit too high, Riker was still justified in killing Yuta, since he acted in defense of Chorgan. So therefore it's not murder.
Well, this thread basically is textbook Monday morning quarterbacking.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:44 AM   #32
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

^ In what way?

Look, we all know what murder is. If Riker had killed Yuta for no reason, or for something trivial, then that would have been murder. But acting in defense of another person (or yourself) is, by definition, not murder. If I kill somebody who's robbing my house or is actively trying to kill me (or somebody else), then that is never murder.

(If they're running away and I shoot them in the back, then THAT is murder, but that's not what Riker was doing.)
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Old May 25 2013, 01:49 AM   #33
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ In what way?

Look, we all know what murder is. If Riker had killed Yuta for no reason, or for something trivial, then that would have been murder. But acting in defense of another person (or yourself) is, by definition, not murder. If I kill somebody who's robbing my house or is actively trying to kill me (or somebody else), then that is never murder.

(If they're running away and I shoot them in the back, then THAT is murder, but that's not what Riker was doing.)
I wasn't referring to you specifically, just saying that in response to your comment being one of the people who are defending Riker's decision with only a moment to act. I mentioned earlier at worst this would be manslaughter after all.

A number of other people have been giving their versions of what he should have/could have done in that two second period. Hence the Monday QB comment.

"O'brien... lock on to Yuta and beam her to the.... oh crap, he's dead... well beam her to the brig anyways."
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Old May 25 2013, 01:53 AM   #34
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

I don't think it would even be manslaughter, really. Self-defense, or defense of another, is pretty much an absolute. The only exception I'm aware of is if the perp turns tail and flees. You can't kill them if they do that, but if they're still attempting to commit the crime, it's fair game.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:58 AM   #35
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Oh I agree, I did say at worst after all. Just playing devil's advocate. Using lethal force to stop her from killing someone else is justifiable to me. If we want a more absolute case to accuse Riker of being a murderer on... well he did casually phaser his and Pulaski's clones in Up the Long Ladder.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:22 AM   #36
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

R. Star wrote: View Post
Oh I agree, I did say at worst after all. Just playing devil's advocate. Using lethal force to stop her from killing someone else is justifiable to me. If we want a more absolute case to accuse Riker of being a murderer on... well he did casually phaser his and Pulaski's clones in Up the Long Ladder.
I think that would depend how far into the maturation process the clones were.
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Old May 25 2013, 08:41 AM   #37
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

I just watched this episode, and really, what else could Riker have done. She was stunned twice, almost begged to stop, and he had to go last resort.

One of the things I found interesting about this episode was the topic of slavery and free will. We always think that Yuta was Murouk's servant, yet looking back on the episode, she never had free will to begin with.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:24 AM   #38
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

R. Star wrote: View Post
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Riker shoots her three times. The first time, she goes stumbling back.

The second time, she almost collapses in pain (and would have if she hadn't grabbed the table). And that was after a quick burst. A sustained burst would have Yuta on the floor in agony, unable to hurt Chorgan.

But no, despite the fact Riker has a means of sending Yuta reeling, he chooses to kill her instead.
Or maybe a sustained shot on the second setting -would- have killed her in an agonizing fashion and Riker chose a comparatively painless method when she persisted on attacking. Never know.
Speculation. Anyway, she seems to be quite resistant to phaser fire, so I doubt a sustained burst would do any serious permanent damage.
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Old May 25 2013, 10:32 AM   #39
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Riker was faced with an impossible situation. He had only seconds to act. He couldn't take the chance that Yuta might get away - it was all happening too fast. So even if he set the phaser a bit too high, Riker was still justified in killing Yuta, since he acted in defense of Chorgan. So therefore it's not murder.
I have to disagree. Riker saw that the second shot he fired sent Yuta reeling. He could have given her a two or three second hit with another one of those, giving him enough time to tackle her to the ground and get a bunch of others to help hold her down. From there, it would be a simple matter to beam her back to a confinement cell to turn her over to the Acamarian authorities.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ In what way?

Look, we all know what murder is. If Riker had killed Yuta for no reason, or for something trivial, then that would have been murder. But acting in defense of another person (or yourself) is, by definition, not murder. If I kill somebody who's robbing my house or is actively trying to kill me (or somebody else), then that is never murder.

(If they're running away and I shoot them in the back, then THAT is murder, but that's not what Riker was doing.)
But this is different.

Let's say that you were in a situation where there is someone who wants to kill you and they are only armed with a weapon that can kill you with a touch but won't kill anyone else. There are also many other people nearby. The potential murder is near you, but still several meters away and get touch you from their current position. I turn up and I have a gun.

Which is the best course of action? Do I shoot the person to kill them, or do I shoot them to incapacitate them? (And let's not get into arguments about how shooting to kill with a gun is easier than making a shot to break someone's leg, because Riker didn't need to hit her leg to incapacitate her.)

At their current position, they cannot touch you. I've already demonstrated to them that I can incapacitate them. What need is there for me to kill them? None.
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Old May 25 2013, 12:23 PM   #40
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Tiberius wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Riker shoots her three times. The first time, she goes stumbling back.

The second time, she almost collapses in pain (and would have if she hadn't grabbed the table). And that was after a quick burst. A sustained burst would have Yuta on the floor in agony, unable to hurt Chorgan.

But no, despite the fact Riker has a means of sending Yuta reeling, he chooses to kill her instead.
Or maybe a sustained shot on the second setting -would- have killed her in an agonizing fashion and Riker chose a comparatively painless method when she persisted on attacking. Never know.
Speculation. Anyway, she seems to be quite resistant to phaser fire, so I doubt a sustained burst would do any serious permanent damage.
And that's not speculation?
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Old May 25 2013, 01:52 PM   #41
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Tiberius wrote: View Post
I have to disagree. Riker saw that the second shot he fired sent Yuta reeling. He could have given her a two or three second hit with another one of those...
But we know from The Undiscovered Country that a phaser on stun can kill at close range.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
From there, it would be a simple matter to beam her back to a confinement cell to turn her over to the Acamarian authorities.
The how long does she sit in prison? Do we even know if the Acamarians have a death penalty? Riker could've just as easily been sentencing her to death by incapacitating her and handing her over to them.
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Old May 25 2013, 02:11 PM   #42
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

The official charge would have to be use of excessive force, or misuse of deadly force. He's a cop in this case, and acting in the defense of someone.
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Old May 26 2013, 03:27 AM   #43
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Look, we all know what murder is.
Murder is killing someone in a illegal mannor. But is what Riker did strictly illegal? I would say no.

Yuta was only four feet from Chorgan when she made her final lunge, from where Riker was standing there was no way he could have moved to physically stopped Yuta. Riker could not have tackled her, restrained her, grapped her. He was too far away.

And she was moving toward Chorgan when she was shot, even if Riker had knocked her unconscious with the last shot, it's possible she still might have fallen on Chorgan, killing him.

Yuta wasn't just stepping towards Chorgan that time, she was basically leaping at him. She only had to touch him.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The only exception I'm aware of is if the perp turns tail and flees. You can't kill them if they do that
Yes of course you can kill them if they're running away. If you're the police (civilian or military), and you confront someone who is believed to be a mass murderer, and they suddenly turn and flee ... hell yes you can in the performance of your duties empty your gun into their back.

What possible reason could you as the police have in deliberately letting them get away?

In the scene in question, Riker was "the cops."



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Old May 26 2013, 10:55 AM   #44
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

R. Star wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

Or maybe a sustained shot on the second setting -would- have killed her in an agonizing fashion and Riker chose a comparatively painless method when she persisted on attacking. Never know.
Speculation. Anyway, she seems to be quite resistant to phaser fire, so I doubt a sustained burst would do any serious permanent damage.
And that's not speculation?
No, it's not.

We see how she reacts to the second shot. She has less of a reaction to it than a regular person being hit with a taser. And I base this on THIS video of a guy getting shot with a taser.

And then, we hear four little beeps as Riker increases power, and we see that the phaser is set to MAXIMUM.

So, Yuta is hit by a phaser shot only four settings below the absolute maximum, and it has less of an impact on her than a taser.

So no, it's not speculation that she's resistant to phaser fire.
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Old May 26 2013, 10:58 AM   #45
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Re: Wanted for Murder: Cmdr Riker

BillJ wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
I have to disagree. Riker saw that the second shot he fired sent Yuta reeling. He could have given her a two or three second hit with another one of those...
But we know from The Undiscovered Country that a phaser on stun can kill at close range.
So what? Riker was shooting from several meters away. If the stun setting is lethal at that distance, it's not exactly a stun setting, is it?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
From there, it would be a simple matter to beam her back to a confinement cell to turn her over to the Acamarian authorities.
The how long does she sit in prison? Do we even know if the Acamarians have a death penalty? Riker could've just as easily been sentencing her to death by incapacitating her and handing her over to them.
Are you seriously presenting this as an argument to support Riker killing her? Because if he didn't, she might face a long prison sentence? And even if the Acamarians were going to kill her, then it is still in accordance with their legal system. Riker has absolutely no grounds for interfering with the legal process of a civilisation that is not a member of the UFP.
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