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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 25 2013, 05:50 AM   #91
blssdwlf
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Or more accurately, "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability by 10 times."

And all this time I just thought they meant one. Heh

I say leave the dialogue alone and just put a footnote that it was just pretty clunky. IMHO.
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Old May 25 2013, 05:51 AM   #92
TIN_MAN
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Yes, I meant to write Constitution, not sure how that happened but oh well.

On second thought, I think I know how it happened; I was in a hurry and typing too fast and mangled "Constitution" into something like "Constition" and then used spell check, and just clicked on whatever option it gave without double checking to make sure that was the right word I wanted to use, and it turned out to be the wrong one? So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Last edited by TIN_MAN; May 25 2013 at 06:10 AM.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:08 AM   #93
Cookies and Cake
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Or more accurately, "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability by 10 times."

And all this time I just thought they meant one. Heh

I say leave the dialogue alone and just put a footnote that it was just pretty clunky. IMHO.
Even just ten times (one order of magnitude, in base ten) isn't enough though to amplify heartbeats that much. Maybe that's why they tried to change it at the last minute.
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Old May 25 2013, 06:15 AM   #94
aridas sofia
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

I brought 1^4 back up because it was infinitely more interesting than the endless ahistorical whining about how little fidelity Franz Joseph showed to TOS, despite the fact that the transcripts Greg Tyler has compiled at Trekplace are literally filled with references revealing where the man had bent over backwards to stick closely to what Roddenberry wanted and was complimented and rewarded by Roddenberry for doing so. This thread long ago became about a half dozen or so people trying to prove a point to one person who will not allow himself to have anything proven to him whatever the evidence.

So figuring a way to make 1^4 sound sensible just seemed more interesting.

Sorry.

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Old May 25 2013, 06:27 AM   #95
blssdwlf
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Or more accurately, "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability by 10 times."

And all this time I just thought they meant one. Heh

I say leave the dialogue alone and just put a footnote that it was just pretty clunky. IMHO.
Even just ten times (one order of magnitude, in base ten) isn't enough though to amplify heartbeats that much. Maybe that's why they tried to change it at the last minute.
Dunno. If we knew what the starting capability of the internal sensors were then I could agree. All we know is an order of magnitude increase was all that was needed.

@aridas sofia - an order of 1 to the fourth power could easily mean 1 order of magnitude or x10. So the dialogue does have meaning. As to how much it dives into technobabble territory that apparently is up for debate.
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Old May 26 2013, 12:32 AM   #96
Godblessed1701
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
But given what has come to light in the intervening years we can see that some choices he made don't really gel with what we see onscreen. One biggee (for me) is him missing Auxiliary Control---it's nowhere in his plans and it was referred to (and seen) a number of times onscreen.

Agreed; the AC is a stumbling block for me as well. Although this is really just a problem for his plans and not the tech manual so much, even so, using "the Constellation is not the Enterprise" argument, I think FJ should have made some provision for it in his plans. It's unclear though, whether this was an intentional omission or just an oversight, but most likely the former?

While one gets the sense that FJ felt he had more leeway, and understandably so, with the “redress of the week” sets that appeared just once, like the phaser room for example; the AC was however, repeatedly seen and clearly intended to look the way we saw it, so FJ should have honored MJ’s intentions here. The same goes for the emergency manual monitor in engineering and the decompression chamber in the medical lab, although the latter was most likely omitted by mistake.

Still, I think the best way to “correct” this is to make one of FJ’s “emergency bridges” into an AC instead?
id just like to say that this here reminded me of a real world bitchin problem i had with 1701-d. see for the first few eps i kept a wondering where all the parties had gone. see back in the old dayz they were a like in every ep. so eventually some dude a tapped me on the shoulder and explaind it to me about picards ship and no parties. see he a told me that they were re-named 'away teams' and that there replaced 'landin parties'. so that got a me a thinking that mabye somewehre along the ways 'emergency bridge' kinda replaced 'auxiliary control' and lesse going by mr. joseph 'command intelligence' be another name for 'science station' which be another name for 'library computer station' on the big bridge.

fac t be, me a hangin with the get-a-lifers techno gurus a told me that names change and differnet thing can a mean the same. for instance toilet be water closet be head be rest room be shithouse.

and golly be me, mr. josephs manual dont show us them there pajama uniforms from the motion picture neither. so to maybe 9 people right here on this here thread mr. joseph be a fuckin-wrongo. just liek hed be for using alternate rank braid specs though they kinda to me look like theyd be chronologically between tos and tms. course i dont know this i only know what the get a lifer geeks a tell me. they swear by mr. josephs works and they are holy bird (peace be with him) affiliated workings.

and the ways i see it, 40 years be a wee bit too late to go and change something which inspired many a get a lifer geek to write countless prints manuals and other nerd-readins. and besides they appeard in no less than 3 of the screen flicks i paid good money to see.

fact be had these get a lifers a herd of yous sayin youd wanna rewrite such awesome books they a come a whomping and blasting about it. cause they live for it.
it merely takes, they tell me, education in the realms of tech fanin. you gotta buy the follow ups. you gotta read between the lines. you gotta remember its a changin uinivese and uniforms, signias, ship designs, change. if the graat joseph made an error another fan comes a long and tells me its a variation not an error. like there be more than one model of phaser in existence thru the fed across time and space dudez.
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Old May 26 2013, 12:36 AM   #97
Warped9
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

^^ All very well except FJ's Emergency Bridge doesn't look anything like the Auxiliary Control we saw numerous times onscreen. And nothing in his plans looks anything like Auxiliary Control. So he fabricated his Emergency Bridge whole cloth with no foundation for it.
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Old May 26 2013, 01:01 AM   #98
Godblessed1701
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

this here discussin came up about auxiliary control and the emergency bridge at a technocon i sneaked into years ago. fact be they say that mr. joseph was an aerospace deisgner with some knowldge of military designs and how there be certain realismz and consistencies between command centers. i dont remember all of it but they said mr. joseph wanted plausiblity more than a borg-like attention to certain set deisigns that be limited by budget. them nerds were a sayin that locating an emergency bridge with computer banks and in the center of the ship was the most believable element of any ship design be it now or in the 23rd centrury. these here same get a lifer folks told me his blueprints represented the enterprise as she would have appeared following the 3 aird seasons. it be a composite of sorts of differnt models plus logical deductions. see there be this book a called 'the makin of star trek' which summarized the ships decks and it was the basis for the blueprints. they be both approved of by the bird (peace be upon his soul) so like one builds upon another. or so they a tell me. i dont know what to believe no more. but these guys were all techno gurus of some learnin. all tos could afford was one lamo console and some grillwork to depict auxilary control. mr. joseph a took it a step beyond. so the addition of more consoles and more bridgey-likness be 'logical' they say. im also a told this be why he placed it on deck 7 stead of deck 8: it be better protected and it be stated in that book. so them geeks a take it to be an upgrade. i think they called the new breed of constituion an archernar, and that be a step up from what they termed a bon homeboy configuration design representing the series ship. they again told me that the defiant be built originally a bon homeboy class starship of this particular design which be what the other constitutions be refitted to. that be the production design of the series. i know it sounds confusin and it hurts my brain cellz from the inside out but i'm just a messenger a relayin to you what they geeked about for years and years down there in that stinkin bar with their posters and proejctions on walls. they also a said them names for them classes come from mr. josephs manual which in turn a came from 'the makin of star trek' and some production note or other. they a told me this be the way of the tech fandim gurus who truly respect the very roots of technogeekdofandomo.

yous take it up with them. they a tell me they wont a set foot here cause there be a curse on this here trek bbs. haunted by bad souls, bad vibes, and evil forcez that work against the intelligent minded men and women who kept to the core of mr. josephs teachins. being a man of god and a true godfearin xtian i truly believe them and i respect them wishes. indeed i only set foot here myself because i aint no nerd and because i be on a mission.
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Old May 26 2013, 01:08 AM   #99
BillJ
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Godblessed1701 wrote: View Post

yous take it up with them. they a tell me they wont a set foot here cause there be a curse on this here trek bbs. haunted by bad souls, bad vibes, and evil forcez that work against the intelligent minded men and women who kept to the core of mr. josephs teachins. being a man of god and a true godfearin xtian i truly believe them and i respect them wishes. indeed i only set foot here myself because i aint no nerd and because i be on a mission.
James Dixon posts are always entertaining, but there's nothing of actual value in them.
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Old May 26 2013, 01:11 AM   #100
Warped9
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Godblessed1701 wrote: View Post

yous take it up with them. they a tell me they wont a set foot here cause there be a curse on this here trek bbs. haunted by bad souls, bad vibes, and evil forcez that work against the intelligent minded men and women who kept to the core of mr. josephs teachins. being a man of god and a true godfearin xtian i truly believe them and i respect them wishes. indeed i only set foot here myself because i aint no nerd and because i be on a mission.
James Dixon posts are always entertaining, but there's nothing of actual value in them.
Uh...yeah.

But back on point: on this issue FJ deliberately ignored a well established fact of the ship as seen onscreen. I'm not giving him a pass on this one.
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Old May 26 2013, 01:16 AM   #101
BillJ
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Warped9 wrote: View Post

But back on point: on this issue FJ deliberately ignored a well established fact of the ship as seen onscreen. I'm not giving him a pass on this one.
I agree.

There was never any indication that a back-up bridge exists beyond Auxiliary Control.
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Old May 26 2013, 03:29 AM   #102
TIN_MAN
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

I could see there being a need for an "emergency bridge" in the secondary hull for when the it separates from the saucer, but the A/C should work just fine in other cases, like those we saw in the series?
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Old May 26 2013, 01:16 PM   #103
Robert Comsol
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
But back on point: on this issue FJ deliberately ignored a well established fact of the ship as seen onscreen. I'm not giving him a pass on this one.
In assuming he deliberately ignored the Auxilary Control Room, you presuppose that FJ had seen and noticed it in the first place.

After having read the interviews again at www.trekplace.com (which is an excercise I can't repeat recommending) there is no substantial hint he was aware of these and other interior compartments not featured in the studio set blueprint of The Making of Star Trek or in the film stills accessible to him.

You can read in these interviews how uncomfortable he was going to Star Trek Conventions and how he emphasized that his work should not be considered to be a bible of some kind (someone should forward these interviews to James Dixon and friends).

It shouldn't take a lot of imagination that during those conventions he meet Trekkers that did ask him those hard questions like "Where's the Auxilary Control Room". What was he supposed to say?

"Sorry, I based my work entirely on the information I got from The Making of Star Trek, a couple of film stills and an occasional item here and there I noticed while watching the reruns with my daughter"?

Fans looked up to him like a guru, almost a Carlos Castaneda thing, and he didn't have the heart to tell them that he was not the kind of Star Trek expert fans assumed him to be. IMHO, he made that clear in the interviews. Apparently he enjoyed his status as a guru because it enabled him to promote his ideas of space exploration and political participation.
I can't, won't and don't blame him for that.

Therefore, I believe that by emancipating ourselves from his work and using our own knowledge to come up with a different kind of technical manual would rather be something he would have approved and encouraged. Didn't somebody mention IDIC in the course of this thread?

Bob
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Old May 26 2013, 01:36 PM   #104
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Ignored, overlooked or just plain missed it brings into question whatever research went into the work and final product.

I admire and respect what FJ did, but I don't revere him for it.
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Old May 26 2013, 11:05 PM   #105
TIN_MAN
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Re: Updating FJ's technical manual?

Short of pestering FJ’s daughter about the A/C issue; at this point, we’ll probably never know for sure whether FJ knew of its existence or not?

What we do know is that FJ made it clear in his TM and BOGP’s that no two starships were exactly alike, and all had individual modifications that made each of them unique, and/or that all were in various stages of more or less continuous upgrades that rendered some older technical orders obsolete as they became superseded by newer ones.

This was FJ’s way of letting the fans “have their cake and eat too” as it were, regarding any changes he introduced, either by design or mistake. He even included spaces in his “section indexes” for what’s “current” and what it “replaces” so readers could assume whatever they wanted in this regard.

So, for those who are so inclined, an “updated” FJ tech manual might include those sections detailing what the previous tech orders specified, this could include specific facilities like the auxiliary control, or an addendum detailing more general fleet info like Alex mentioned up thread? This way a lot of supposed inconsistencies could be ironed out?

Of course, for those who want a whole new tech manual starting from scratch, none of the above matters?
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