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Old May 22 2013, 10:48 AM   #31
teacake
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
For every thing Star Wars cribbed from Star Trek, it cribbed numerous other things from other genres.

Star Wars managed to break out of the sci-fi niche and appeal to general audiences with record-breaking long lines. The original film was basically #1 for a whole year. Star Trek never came close to that sort of broad appeal, until JJTrek.
Everything set in space with space ships that is a huge success makes more science fiction, space opera, space fantasy (whatever name people want to call stuff) more likely. IMO Star Trek owes a lot to the phenomenal success of Star Wars. They both paved ways for each other and for other great endeavors in the genres.
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Old May 22 2013, 11:53 AM   #32
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Star Trek and Star Wars are arguably not the same genre. Star Wars is a Western.
Western sci-fi fairy tale. Gotta love the mix.
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Old May 22 2013, 02:18 PM   #33
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

I'm a little suprised no one mentioned how much "Dune" is in Star Wars. One of the (many) problems for David Lynch's Dune was they had to make sure it didn't look too much like Star Wars, at least I read that somewhere but I can't find where I read that. But Tatooine is like Arakis and Han Solo dropped Jabba's spice shipment, and there's the Emperor and his Sardaukar, although only in the first few minutes, then they're all redshirts under the armor for the rest of the movie.

EDIT:
I found a link http://moongadget.com/origins/dune.html
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Old May 22 2013, 02:45 PM   #34
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
One of the other connotations of cashing in on something is that the thing riding the coattails is the lesser. That clearly wouldn't be the case here.
"Clearly?" How many SW movies were actually good? There are really only two of the six that are considered classics. And the original film never aspired to be more than a lightweight popcorn movie -- while the prequels' attempts to say something more substantial were hamfisted. SW has the edge over ST in production values, but certainly not in terms of writing or acting.

And really, as I said before, it's a mistake to treat ST and SW as direct competitors. They aren't trying to be the same thing. They work on different levels. TOS's inspirations were things like Forbidden Planet, Horatio Hornblower, The Twilight Zone, and the prose/pulp science fiction of the '40s through the '60s. SW's inspirations were things like Flash Gordon, The Searchers, Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, and Joseph Campbell.
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Old May 22 2013, 06:53 PM   #35
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

plynch wrote: View Post
"Capitalized on the popularity of Star Trek" might be a better phrase.

SW was/is a great thing on its own, but Trek was HUGE, mid-Seventies.
Huh? Star Trek wasn't even on the air, aside from reruns in syndication. There was maybe a handful of original novels, and a short-lived cartoon series, but Trek was essentially in limbo during the seventies. Even Roddenberry had moved onto other things: Genesis II, Planet Earth, The Questor Tapes, Spectre, etc.
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Old May 22 2013, 08:52 PM   #36
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Christopher wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
One of the other connotations of cashing in on something is that the thing riding the coattails is the lesser. That clearly wouldn't be the case here.
"Clearly?" How many SW movies were actually good? There are really only two of the six that are considered classics. And the original film never aspired to be more than a lightweight popcorn movie -- while the prequels' attempts to say something more substantial were hamfisted. SW has the edge over ST in production values, but certainly not in terms of writing or acting.

And really, as I said before, it's a mistake to treat ST and SW as direct competitors. They aren't trying to be the same thing. They work on different levels. TOS's inspirations were things like Forbidden Planet, Horatio Hornblower, The Twilight Zone, and the prose/pulp science fiction of the '40s through the '60s. SW's inspirations were things like Flash Gordon, The Searchers, Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, and Joseph Campbell.
We're talking about 1977, yes? So, when I say Star Wars in this context, the one of the OP, I'm talking about the 1977 film, which was called just "Star Wars". I cited my evidence: a film that was basically #1 for a whole year. That's clear enough.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:41 PM   #37
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
"Capitalized on the popularity of Star Trek" might be a better phrase.

SW was/is a great thing on its own, but Trek was HUGE, mid-Seventies.
Huh? Star Trek wasn't even on the air, aside from reruns in syndication. There was maybe a handful of original novels, and a short-lived cartoon series, but Trek was essentially in limbo during the seventies. Even Roddenberry had moved onto other things: Genesis II, Planet Earth, The Questor Tapes, Spectre, etc.
Mid-1970s, stream-of-consciousness:
Posterbooks, photonovels, magazines, "pen-a-posters," models, blueprints, tech manual, comics, donmoor kid shirts, Mego action figures and bridge, pj's, curtains, the show stripped every weeknight in every major tv market, even non-nerd kids saying "beam me up" in school, TMOST in how many printings, Gerrold's WOST and Tribbles in mass market paper, etc., etc. I was there, it was huge. You must have been there too. Don't you remember? I was a kid and just entering our average small-town bookstore, they had a star trek section.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:50 PM   #38
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
SW was/is a great thing on its own, but Trek was HUGE, mid-Seventies.
Huh? Star Trek wasn't even on the air, aside from reruns in syndication. There was maybe a handful of original novels, and a short-lived cartoon series, but Trek was essentially in limbo during the seventies. Even Roddenberry had moved onto other things: Genesis II, Planet Earth, The Questor Tapes, Spectre, etc.
No, it wasn't in production, but it was one of the most popular and successful shows in rerun syndication, the early conventions had huge attendance, and it was clear by that point that it was a major cultural phenomenon. No, it wasn't as big as Star Wars became in public awareness -- but nothing in SF, or arguably in movies/TV in general, was as big. Star Wars launched a whole new era of blockbuster films, and the popularity of pre-1977 works must be assessed on a different scale. By pre-'77 standards, taking fan culture into account rather than simply what was in production, Trek was the biggest thing in mass-media SF.

Essentially, Star Trek was a quantum leap beyond prior screen SF in terms of its popularity and cultural impact, and Star Wars was the next quantum leap beyond that.



CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I cited my evidence: a film that was basically #1 for a whole year. That's clear enough.
That it was more successful, yes. Not that it was better.
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Old May 24 2013, 12:10 AM   #39
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
SW was/is a great thing on its own, but Trek was HUGE, mid-Seventies.
Huh? Star Trek wasn't even on the air, aside from reruns in syndication. There was maybe a handful of original novels, and a short-lived cartoon series, but Trek was essentially in limbo during the seventies. Even Roddenberry had moved onto other things: Genesis II, Planet Earth, The Questor Tapes, Spectre, etc.
No, it wasn't in production, but it was one of the most popular and successful shows in rerun syndication, the early conventions had huge attendance, and it was clear by that point that it was a major cultural phenomenon. No, it wasn't as big as Star Wars became in public awareness -- but nothing in SF, or arguably in movies/TV in general, was as big. Star Wars launched a whole new era of blockbuster films, and the popularity of pre-1977 works must be assessed on a different scale. By pre-'77 standards, taking fan culture into account rather than simply what was in production, Trek was the biggest thing in mass-media SF.

Essentially, Star Trek was a quantum leap beyond prior screen SF in terms of its popularity and cultural impact, and Star Wars was the next quantum leap beyond that.

.
Well, we should probably squeeze Planet of the Apes in there. That was huge in the seventies: five movies, two TV series, books, magazines, comics, and enough merchandise to fill the Forbidden Zone . . ..

Was Trek bigger than Apes in the seventies? That's probably a judgment call.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:05 AM   #40
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Christopher wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I cited my evidence: a film that was basically #1 for a whole year. That's clear enough.
That it was more successful, yes. Not that it was better.
I never claimed that SW was "better". I did however claim, and support, that SW (1977) can't be pigeonholed as only riding the wave of ST's success, which hopefully should be a clearer way of expressing some of what I said. SW was much more than that, in concept, in terms of the interest it generated, and in terms of marketshare.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:35 AM   #41
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Well, we should probably squeeze Planet of the Apes in there. That was huge in the seventies: five movies, two TV series, books, magazines, comics, and enough merchandise to fill the Forbidden Zone . . ..

Was Trek bigger than Apes in the seventies? That's probably a judgment call.
I guess that depends on whether you're defining it in terms of market footprint or in terms of fan passion. It was ST that prompted such things as huge SF conventions and the proliferation of fanzines, not to mention that fanfic tropes like "slash" (from K/S) and "Mary Sue" were coined in Trek fandom and only later generalized to other franchises.


CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I never claimed that SW was "better".
You said it "wouldn't be the case" that SW was "the lesser." You didn't specify how you meant "lesser."


I did however claim, and support, that SW (1977) can't be pigeonholed as only riding the wave of ST's success, which hopefully should be a clearer way of expressing some of what I said. SW was much more than that, in concept, in terms of the interest it generated, and in terms of marketshare.
Okay, I went back and reviewed the original post, and I guess the question was whether SW succeeded because it was riding the wave of ST's success. I'd agree that that wasn't what happened there. It's true that Lucas was influenced by ST and hoping to benefit from the interest of its fanbase, so he was "cashing in" to that extent, but it's also true that his little Flash Gordon pastiche turned out to be far huger than he or anyone else could ever have anticipated. It wasn't just borrowing the success of some other franchise or film, but achieved success beyond what any other movie ever had up to that time and for years to come.
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Old May 24 2013, 02:41 AM   #42
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Christopher wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I never claimed that SW was "better".
You said it "wouldn't be the case" that SW was "the lesser." You didn't specify how you meant "lesser."


I did however claim, and support, that SW (1977) can't be pigeonholed as only riding the wave of ST's success, which hopefully should be a clearer way of expressing some of what I said. SW was much more than that, in concept, in terms of the interest it generated, and in terms of marketshare.
Okay, I went back and reviewed the original post, and I guess the question was whether SW succeeded because it was riding the wave of ST's success. I'd agree that that wasn't what happened there. It's true that Lucas was influenced by ST and hoping to benefit from the interest of its fanbase, so he was "cashing in" to that extent, but it's also true that his little Flash Gordon pastiche turned out to be far huger than he or anyone else could ever have anticipated. It wasn't just borrowing the success of some other franchise or film, but achieved success beyond what any other movie ever had up to that time and for years to come.
Right.

And I was a bit terse when I said "lesser", because I didn't know how to expound on it, with any sort of reasonable brevity. It goes beyond just ticket sales and market share.

Part of what I meant by SW not being the lesser is covered by the statement that SW "can't be pigeonholed as only riding the wave of ST's success".

Part of it is that Star Wars wasn't to Star Trek what the grade B knock-offs of SW, such as—oh—Starcrash, were to Star Wars.

I'd definitely say that the makers of Starcrash/Stella Star tried to "cash in on" Star Wars.
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Old May 24 2013, 09:03 PM   #43
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

For what it's worth, way back in 1977, I didn't perceive STAR WARS (the original movie) as a Star Trek ripoff. I remembered being thrilled that somebody was finally doing an old-fashioned Edgar Rice Burroughs type space fantasy right. I saw STAR WARS as being very much in the tradition of John Carter of Mars, Flash Gordon, etc., with a hefty dose of King Arthur thrown in.

The idea that it was inspired by Trek never crossed my mind . . ..
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Old May 25 2013, 03:54 AM   #44
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, way back in 1977, I didn't perceive STAR WARS (the original movie) as a Star Trek ripoff. I remembered being thrilled that somebody was finally doing an old-fashioned Edgar Rice Burroughs type space fantasy right. I saw STAR WARS as being very much in the tradition of John Carter of Mars, Flash Gordon, etc., with a hefty dose of King Arthur thrown in.

The idea that it was inspired by Trek never crossed my mind . . ..
Though a dedicated 70s Trekkie kid, I remember being really enthused about Wars, as something very different but great. "Space" was big in the 70s though, even before SW. I remember a furniture company that had space scenes in the background of its ads on tv.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:15 AM   #45
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Re: Did Star Wars cash in on Star Trek?

I don't really remember what I thought of Star Wars when it first came out. I don't think it really stood out in my mind as more than just one of the various sci-fi properties I was interested in. The only one of those properties that stood above the rest in my mind was ST.

Of course, for me, SW was a novel first, or maybe a comic, since we had that oversized Marvel special that adapted the first third (?) of the film. I didn't see the movie until some months later.
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