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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 141 19.11%
A 160 21.68%
A- 99 13.41%
B+ 82 11.11%
B 58 7.86%
B- 27 3.66%
C+ 40 5.42%
C 38 5.15%
C- 24 3.25%
D+ 11 1.49%
D 13 1.76%
D- 10 1.36%
F 35 4.74%
Voters: 738. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 24 2013, 03:25 AM   #3556
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Yeah, STIII had some great moments going for it.
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Old May 24 2013, 04:01 AM   #3557
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

You guys are killing me!

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yeah, STIII had some great moments going for it.
Yes, it did. It truly did.

But the same can be true of every Star Trek movie. Even Nemesis, which had Dina Meyer.
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Old May 24 2013, 05:24 AM   #3558
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

It did have Chekhov's very stylish ensemble.
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Old May 24 2013, 05:53 AM   #3559
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Hey, I think the first 90 minutes of TSFS are great. I even like Reverend Emmitt Lloyd as a Klingon. I just think the end sequence was in a major need of a re-edit. Honestly, I think Lenny could have could have cut a good five minutes out of it without losing anything while greatly improving the pacing.

And please, don't call me tiny.
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Old May 24 2013, 06:49 AM   #3560
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think Lenny could have could have cut a good five minutes out of it without losing anything while greatly improving the pacing.
He did already, at least a couple minutes anyway, that's how it got down to release length.

There was a procession with Spock being carried up the mountain past all these Vulcan extras (Takei got to play one of them) and through the Vulcan Hall of Mystic Bullshit where the art department erected large photographic cutouts of the heads of famous Vulcans.

(I'm sure it must have looked better than it sounds. Well, not entirely sure. Some of the snow covered cactus on Genesis looks like somebody just inverted a tripod or light stand and then threw a fuzzy white blanket over it. SERIOUS art department cheap-outs and creative failures on this one.)
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Old May 24 2013, 06:54 AM   #3561
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I seriously debated whether or not I wanted to post what I thought about Star Trek Into Darkness here; but I figure there are people who probably want to see my take, so I'll post it anyway. Or, more accurately, cut-and-paste.

Make a note though: I do not have the time or energy to get into a prolonged argument. If someone wants to pick apart everything I posted point-by-point then bear in mind I will not get into it. I'm not interested.

I'm here to post what I thought about the film and that's all.

With that out of the way: as I said upthread, I thought the 2009 film was better.

The problems I have with Star Trek Into Darkness have to do with STID itself and not the reboot in general:

1. Why would Admiral Marcus need to revive Khan to figure out how to fight the Klingons? It would be like someone today reviving Napoleon to figure out how to fight the North Koreans. Second of all, Starfleet has had 100 years to prepare for the Klingons by this point. The two sides have always been portrayed as powers of equal strength. The Klingons are a threat, but they're not an overwhelming one. Humanity also seems savage and primitive enough that they don't need Khan's insights. The humans in the Abrams films, unlike the Roddenberry series, would fit right into today's world.

2. Khan would never allow himself to become a pawn of Starfleet or Section 31. He'd never save Kirk from the Klingons. And he's not really that ruthless in this film. He should've killed Kirk right before beaming his corpse back to the Enterprise or fatally wounded him at least so he'd be dying and in as much pain as possible even as he intended to destroy the Enterprise. He does horrible things but he himself doesn't act villainous enough. The original Khan, as well as Kruge in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", were much more black-hatted, which is what Khan should be.

3. The movie was supposed to show Kirk becoming more mature and growing into an adult. When he's repeatedly punching Khan, he's acting like a 15-year-old. When he constantly turns his head whenever a woman walks by, he's acting like a 14-year-old. When he's having a threesome, it's like a teenage boy's fantasy. I see nothing in the film that shows he became more mature. All I see is a kid who had a bad experience and a rough mission, then made a good speech at the end. He's not an adult. He's still reckless. He's still immature. I don't think this is the type of Captain you want to send out on a five-year mission into the unknown. Is this who the Admiralty wants representing the Federation? The only rationale I can think of is to get Kirk out of the way. It would make more sense to have him in Federation space, thinking outside the box to solve unconventional local problems where he can be of help and they can keep an eye on him.

4. Spock is much too emotional. Spock shouldn't be yelling "KHAAAANNN!!!" and going crazy while fighting him. Spock shouldn't be jealous when Dr. Marcus is assigned as Science Officer and, yes, he was jealous. Spock wouldn't give Pike lip.

5. The treatment of Doctor Marcus is extremely sexist. She undresses while Kirk is in the same room and the only reason is to show a shot of her in her underwear. When she screams after Admiral Marcus is killed, it's like something from out of a '50s B-movie. They can't even stay away from the sex jokes while McCoy is down with her while they perform "surgery" on the torpedo.

6. Why would Khan's blood restore anything to life? They don't even try to explain it. It's just magic blood that can somehow reanimate every cell in your body. On a side-note: does that mean Khan could be immortal?

7. There's an entire ethical dilemma that's not even touched upon. Now that the location of the Botany Bay is known, should these escaped supermen and superwomen stand trial? I'm surprised they were all just left in suspended animation but that could've been mitigated if there was at least a discussion about what should be done with them.

8. There's absolutely no comparison between the scene when Spock was dying in "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" and the reverse scene in "Star Trek Into Darkness".

9. When Spock is fighting Khan on Earth, it feels more like "The Matrix" than "Star Trek". And why just beam down Uhura to let Spock know not to kill Khan? Maybe Uhura is the only one who can get through to Spock quickly enough but she's Communications Officer. There should be at least one Security Officer as well.

10. Why would that officer toward the beginning of "Into Darkness" blow up a building just because Khan/Harrison saved his daughter? Seems like an extreme thing to agree to.

11. Starfleet has sensors, ships in orbit have sensors, spacedock has sensors. Why did it take Kirk to figure out that "Harrison" was about to attack where the briefing was being held?

12. This is last because I realized as I was watching that this was the least of the film's problems: if you're going to cast someone to play Khan, it should either be a Hispanic actor, like Ricardo Montalban was, or an Indian. The fact that a 1967 episode and a 1982 film are more diverse than a 2013 film is inexcusable. This is not to slight Benedict Cumberbatch but I think he was miscast, unless they had him just be John Harrison. On that note: I understand that Khan went by a false identity but, if you're going to have the false identity, why not go the rest of the way and have McCoy or Khan himself mention that he was surgically altered?

Fin.

Last edited by Lord Garth; May 24 2013 at 07:12 AM.
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Old May 24 2013, 07:34 AM   #3562
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
You guys are killing me!

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yeah, STIII had some great moments going for it.
Yes, it did. It truly did.

But the same can be true of every Star Trek movie. Even Nemesis, which had Dina Meyer.
True, and it's not like I can say you're wrong, because I'm a huge fan of TFF, and taste is subjective. Not like I'd say you were wrong anyway, because STIII does have some problems.

Still, for me it's all about the characters, and this movie drives it home just how much we, by way of the characters, love (and miss) Spock. Plus, I just can't help but laugh at the scene where McCoy<Spock> tries to get a ride to the Genesis planet.
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Old May 24 2013, 10:01 AM   #3563
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
10. Why would that officer toward the beginning of "Into Darkness" blow up a building just because Khan/Harrison saved his daughter? Seems like an extreme thing to agree to.
"Is there anything you wouldn't do for your family ?"
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Old May 24 2013, 10:09 AM   #3564
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

^In Lord Garth's case, yes.
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Old May 24 2013, 10:25 AM   #3565
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

TSFS is a hammock.

Now I want JJ-TMP, V'ger. Finally they can do it justice .
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Old May 24 2013, 11:01 AM   #3566
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I've just seen the film for the third time. All of my friends know me as the big Star Trek fan, so I've been getting invited to this one a lot... The film really stands up to repeated viewings, but that didn't deter me from trying to find multiple plot holes and ways the film could have improved.

I'll point out a few, and also muse on some things discussed in this massive thread:

1) What really sticks out to me on this viewing is Scotty's line. "One day! I've been off this ship one day!"

Did we really need to have the need to have the whole adventure take place in a 24 hour span? This makes the voyage to Qo'nos implausible, which of course it is, and diminishes sense of vastness of outer space. But it also is a missed opportunity.

There's a scene that just before Spock confronts Carol Marcus about her identity that shows the Enterprise at warp which could have made it an indeterminable amount of time. It would have been an ideal moment for a Captain's log. Something to the effect of : "We are enroute to Kronos and will reach Klingon space by tomorrow. The crew is preparing for the mission with focus and professionalism... " etc. It could have provided a nice act break and the scene with Spock and Marcus could have followed seamlessly.

Scotty's line could have been changed to "One week, one week I've been off this ship!"

It also would have provided Scotty with more time to learn the Vengeance's systems and allow him to sabatoge it to the degree that he did more plausibly. I don't think it would have detracted anything from the plot, but would have closed some plot holes nicely.

2) Carol Marcus did not say "Transwarp"... she said "My father has been developing advanced warp technologies." Just to clear that up if it hasn't been done already. Seriously though, as others have pointed out. If they had stayed at Warp .000000001 second longer they would have overshot Earth by millions of miles. LOL. I really don't have any explanation for that. Why not just have them arrive at Earth, and have the Vengeance attack them as they attempt to hail Starfleet?

3) If the Vengeance could beam Carol Marcus off the Enterprise when it had its shields up, why did Khan need to argue with Spock over the torpedoes? How did the Vengeance beam Marcus off the Enterprise with its shields up anyway?

4) I thought Uhura's confrontation with the Klingons was brilliant--up to the point where the officer grabbed her neck and pulled the knife. Her appeal to their honor REALLY made me appreciate her as a character and the writers understanding of Klingons. Then they made the Klingon guy a typical brute. The scene could have been even more effective if he did clutch her neck and say, "We'll find this human you are looking for and teach him the price of violating our territory, just as we will teach you." and then have Khan go apes--t on them. At least that way, it could have seemed as if Uhura MIGHT have been able to talk her way out of it, rather than her plan falling apart only to be saved by the sheer luck of Khan's interference.

5) How does 1 photon torpedo Destroy General Chang's BoP in ST6, but 72 photon torpedoes blowing up INSIDE the Vengeance only "disable its weapons systems"? That thing should have blown to Kingdom Come. I don't really know an elegant way to have fixed this in the script so that the Vengeance could still be piloted to collision course with the surface... Maybe Bones was only able to arm 3-4 of the Warheads in time? Even so, an ordinance explosion of that magnitude within the hull still takes most ships down.

6) I feel like one line added to the scene with Bones discovering the Tribble was alive could have fixed a loose end. I discussed Khan's blood with a friend and we both wondered why they couldn't have used the blood of one of the 72 other superhumans they had on board? We both agreed that perhaps the blood of those still cryogenically frozen wasn't viable to use in a serum and would take too long to thaw out. An additional line from Bones to that effect would have been helpful.

7) The scene where the matter-anti-matter injectors are misaligned and Scotty forbids Kirk that they can't open the compartment or they'll both be killed before they make the climb... for some reason, in this latest viewing reminded me of "Thine Own Self" where Riker tells Troi, "My first duty is to the ship..." I wondered why Scotty didn't attempt to enter the core in an effort to save the Enterprise from certain destruction... and why Kirk didn't order him to...

Now to me, Kirk's heroism in that scene(the beauty of the set, the raw physicality of it, his fear in the face of certain death, which he FINALLY felt) was the best moment of the film, and one of the best moments in Star Trek. Still, I wonder if I would have liked it better if Scotty had said "I have to make the climb." and Kirk says his line and knocks him out.

I enjoyed the movie immensely, and these plot holes are more little annoyances than major problems in the plot. I still feel like Marcus's corruption and outright disregard for his own people was the biggest issue with the story.
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Old May 24 2013, 11:10 AM   #3567
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

5) Chang's ship was a little Bird of Prey. The Vengeance was about 1450 meters long. You probably could have parked Chang's ship in that hanger Scotty ran across (which IIRC, was hanger #17 of who knows how many)
Although yes, Trek weapons have always been massively underpowered in practice. They're meant to be antimatter warheads.
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Old May 24 2013, 11:17 AM   #3568
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Tai wrote: View Post
3) If the Vengeance could beam Carol Marcus off the Enterprise when it had its shields up, why did Khan need to argue with Spock over the torpedoes? How did the Vengeance beam Marcus off the Enterprise with its shields up anyway?
Seeing it three times, perhaps you can refresh my memory, but weren't the Enterprise shields basically knocked out or severely weakened at that point ?

5) How does 1 photon torpedo Destroy General Chang's BoP in ST6, but 72 photon torpedoes blowing up INSIDE the Vengeance only "disable its weapons systems"?
Remember, those aren't TNG-era torpedoes. I think they were special torpedoes in the sense that they were stealth, but maybe they didn't have much yield.

6) I feel like one line added to the scene with Bones discovering the Tribble was alive could have fixed a loose end. I discussed Khan's blood with a friend and we both wondered why they couldn't have used the blood of one of the 72 other superhumans they had on board?
Khan's the leader for a reason: maybe his blood's the only one that'll work. I still don't think they had time to thaw another Augment to have a look.
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Old May 24 2013, 11:56 AM   #3569
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
I seriously debated whether or not I wanted to post what I thought about Star Trek Into Darkness here; but I figure there are people who probably want to see my take, so I'll post it anyway. Or, more accurately, cut-and-paste.
Fair enough. But since you took the time to reason out your problems with it I'll offer some thoughts of these points, whether a reply is coming or not!

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
1. Why would Admiral Marcus need to revive Khan to figure out how to fight the Klingons? It would be like someone today reviving Napoleon to figure out how to fight the North Koreans. Second of all, Starfleet has had 100 years to prepare for the Klingons by this point. The two sides have always been portrayed as powers of equal strength. The Klingons are a threat, but they're not an overwhelming one. Humanity also seems savage and primitive enough that they don't need Khan's insights. The humans in the Abrams films, unlike the Roddenberry series, would fit right into today's world.
A fair point. I think it may speak to how intelligent Khan really is. He caught up pretty damn fast in regards to technology, and physically he dispatched the Klingons of this film in short order.

I would imagine Khan was just one of many coals Section 31 had in its fires, and the fact that after thawing out, he so quickly was able to design the Vengeance's systems and the new torpedoes meant he was a home run as far as being a covert asset... until he got all terrorist-y.

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
2. Khan would never allow himself to become a pawn of Starfleet or Section 31. He'd never save Kirk from the Klingons. And he's not really that ruthless in this film. He should've killed Kirk right before beaming his corpse back to the Enterprise or fatally wounded him at least so he'd be dying and in as much pain as possible even as he intended to destroy the Enterprise. He does horrible things but he himself doesn't act villainous enough. The original Khan, as well as Kruge in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", were much more black-hatted, which is what Khan should be.
The Khan we saw in Space Seed was greeted by a cordial Kirk who literally handed him the Enterprise technical manuals and a historian who was ready to drop her panties at the first sight of him. I'd imagine he felt supremely confident he could take over Earth again in five minutes after meeting that bunch.

The Khan in this timeline met Admiral Marcus, who was probably pretty damn ruthless and Khan probably figured he was a guy to be reckoned with. I got the sense however even in helping Marcus he was biding his time until the Vengeance was ready. Scotty said, "I thought he was helping us." Kirk replied, "I get the feeling we're helping him."

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
5. The treatment of Doctor Marcus is extremely sexist. She undresses while Kirk is in the same room and the only reason is to show a shot of her in her underwear. When she screams after Admiral Marcus is killed, it's like something from out of a '50s B-movie. They can't even stay away from the sex jokes while McCoy is down with her while they perform "surgery" on the torpedo.
Lt. Marla McGivers going completely gaga over Khan and betraying her uniform and her crew over a day-old sexual attraction is true sexism. We contextualize it because of the era. But re-watching "Space Seed" in anticipation of this film was embarrassing for that reason.

Lt. Marcus in this film is introduced as a Doctorate in Physics. Right of the bat that's a positive example of a woman in science. She showed an independent streak--her disobeying orders and regulations was done to get to the bottom of a plot which by instinct she knew was trouble. She stood up publicly to her very powerful and authoritative father in an effort to save her ship. I found her and Uhura both to have had strong characteristics and qualities. Her scream was seeing her father's skull crushed. Seems understandable to me.
I don't really agree at all with the criticisms of this being a sexist film. Yes, the underwear scene was certainly gratuitous. But it was a two second gag to show Kirk's dumbstruck expression.

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
6. Why would Khan's blood restore anything to life? They don't even try to explain it. It's just magic blood that can somehow reanimate every cell in your body. On a side-note: does that mean Khan could be immortal?
You're right. Over-reach on the writer's part. But they did reinforce the notion both with the little girl in the beginning and the Tribble. This was one of the backbones of the film's plot. It was flimsy, but threaded with the other points-- I personally let it slide.


Lord Garth wrote: View Post
7. There's an entire ethical dilemma that's not even touched upon. Now that the location of the Botany Bay is known, should these escaped supermen and superwomen stand trial? I'm surprised they were all just left in suspended animation but that could've been mitigated if there was at least a discussion about what should be done with them.
In... well, ONE of the timelines that lead to the Star Trek universe the Eugenics Wars are followed up by a Third World War, a nuclear third world war. When you blow up the world, your previous judicial proceedings lose some of their legitimacy. It's hard to carry out a sentence delivered by a government that no longer exists. I'd say when the crew of the SS Botany Bay was revived, they had clean records. At least that's my opinion.


Lord Garth wrote: View Post
9. When Spock is fighting Khan on Earth, it feels more like "The Matrix" than "Star Trek". And why just beam down Uhura to let Spock know not to kill Khan? Maybe Uhura is the only one who can get through to Spock quickly enough but she's Communications Officer. There should be at least one Security Officer as well.
Agreed. Why not just beam down an entire security team to go after Khan in the first place instead of just Spock alone?

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
11. Starfleet has sensors, ships in orbit have sensors, spacedock has sensors. Why did it take Kirk to figure out that "Harrison" was about to attack where the briefing was being held?
Ugh. Where were the sensors on the battle next to the moon? Where were the Klingon sensors detecting the Enterprise had entered their space? Where were the sensors in a Section 31 facility showing a highly reactive metal was on that dude's ring?

Apparently Earth and Kronos have no sensors in this timeline. I don't remember sensors in ToS being so non-existent.

Of course, there was no armed Combat Air Patrol above the Pentagon on 9/11. The F-16 taking off at Andrews supposedly didn't have any ammunition and had orders to crash into United 97 to stop it. Governments sometimes do get a false sense of security around their military headquarters.

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
12. This is last because I realized as I was watching that this was the least of the film's problems: if you're going to cast someone to play Khan, it should either be a Hispanic actor, like Ricardo Montalban was, or an Indian. The fact that a 1967 episode and a 1982 film are more diverse than a 2013 film is inexcusable. This is not to slight Benedict Cumberbatch but I think he was miscast, unless they had him just be John Harrison. On that note: I understand that Khan went by a false identity but, if you're going to have the false identity, why not go the rest of the way and have McCoy or Khan himself mention that he was surgically altered?
Rumor had it that JJ Abrams tried to get Benecio Del Toro... When that fell through he just figured he'd get a damn fine actor and let him re imagine the role. I feel like Benedict Cumberbatch did a fine job.
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Old May 24 2013, 12:03 PM   #3570
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Seeing it three times, perhaps you can refresh my memory, but weren't the Enterprise shields basically knocked out or severely weakened at that point?
At this point the Enterprise shields were still at 100%. The Enterprise was only attacked after it went to warp. The Vengeance knocked the Enterprise out of warp in front of Luna with its barrage of torpedoes. Up until that point the only damage to the Enterprise was the sabotage to the warp core. Kirk even tells Sulu just before he exits the bridge, "Keep those shields up!"
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