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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old May 23 2013, 06:23 PM   #16
SeerSGB
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

datalogan wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Why pay a pro when the fanficcers will do it for free.
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
what's to keep someone from ripping stories from (example) fanfiction.net and selling them?
Did I miss something?
I thought the writers would be getting paid.

JD wrote: View Post
Amazon . . . will pay royalties to both the writer and the IP owner.
It’s just that Amazon is “finding” the writers and prose by looking at pre-existing fanfic work that hasn’t yet been officially published.
Seems like a no-brainer, no-big-deal to me. But maybe I’m missing something.
There's no upfront cost to the IP Holder/Publisher. I (the IP Holder/Publisher) wouldn't being paying you (the fanfic writer) and advance or any other fee to write the book. Where as under the Kindle scheme: You write the book, it sells you get a % of the money (probably Kindle's 35% / 30% they've been pushing on Kindle authors for a while), Amazon keeps their "download fee", and the IP holder cash the check. I've not paid you, you've paid me a portion of your sell for the "license" to write in my franchise.
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Old May 23 2013, 07:57 PM   #17
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

So hypothetically, why would I (as a consumer) want to pay for Star Trek fanfic when there's plenty of free fanfic out there?

I happily pay for a professionally-written novel because I value my time. Its worth it to me to pay for an experience that I know will (usually) be good. Not that all of the fanfic out there is bad. But finding good fanfic is time consuming.

SNW was a little different, in that it was curated. Editors combed through the submissions and only published the best work. I enjoyed SNW, but even so, only a few stories came close to being as good as what the professional tie-in authors create. (And, they were all short story length. Producing a full length novel is a lot more difficult.)

It sounded to me like this concept wasn't even going to be curated, but I could be wrong. (And, curation and editing costs money. Cheaper than hiring a writer? Maybe. But if so then why didn't it replace professional writing already after the SNW experiment?)

All that to say I think that the professional tie in market will continue. They are already competing against free fanfic and so far I'd say a lot of us think it is worth the money.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:02 PM   #18
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

They don't curate Kindle publishing as it is (Log in, upload, and unless Amazon gets complaints or your violate the TOS, they don't care). So I can't see this being any different.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:14 PM   #19
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
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Oh I can see the pros getting screwed on this deal. Why pay a pro when the fanficcers will do it for free.
Because experienced professionals will turn out better work than most of the amateurs and thus their work will sell better?
Quality of work aside, why pay a higher amount to a professional when you can pay zero to a fanficcer and make pure profit?
You miss my point. The amount of profit depends on how many people buy the books. And well-written, professional books would presumably satisfy the audience more and thus sell more copies -- i.e. make more profit -- in the long run.

In other words:

Why pay 1 person out of my pocket, when I can get a dozen little monkeys working for me for free and all I have to do is cash the check coming in?
Because the checks coming in may not be as big in the latter case. If the audience doesn't like a product as much, it won't be as successful. As DorkBoy suggested, a lot of people who'd read fanfiction for free wouldn't necessarily pay for work of the same quality. Particularly since these works won't have the freedom of fanfic to do things like slash, erotica, or crossovers with other franchises. So it takes away a lot of what makes fanfic worthwhile to its readers and becomes just conventional tie-in fiction of inconsistent quality.


Not saying it'll be the death of professional tie-in writers, but it's has the potential to cut into their bottom line and clog the market.
Initially, perhaps, but I'm hopeful that the market will speak and the quality, professional work will sell better overall.


rahullak wrote: View Post
Disagree on damage to the current authors and official Treklit. I don't see fan fiction in any way overriding or chipping away at professional fiction, at least when it comes to Star Trek for the reasons you mentioned: quality and editing.
Although as HuffPo pointed out, since it's for profit, it's not really fanfiction. It's crowdsourcing licensed tie-in fiction. The risk is that publishers could see that as a cheaper alternative and be less inclined to hire folks like me, Dave, KRAD, Kirsten, Greg, and the rest. What I'm hoping is that they'll choose to go with names they can trust to sell well rather than gambling on unknowns, however cheap.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:29 PM   #20
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

Blessing chunks of fan fiction I think is ultimately a good thing. The fans will decide how to separate the wheat from the chaff. I mean, there's been wildly varying quality (and adherence to canon) in official Trek Lit as it is.

Whether people will pay for what's already floating around for free could easily be asked about anything, given the proliferation of piracy.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:44 PM   #21
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

Hmm... on the one hand, if used like the Strange New Worlds contest, I think this could be a great way to find potential authors for a franchise's tie-in literature (and something I would wholeheartedly participate in). But as it's implemented now, it's just a way to exploit fans' passion towards IPs they love. If you're gonna sell the stuff, at least compensate the author as an incentive for them to make more, because the only incentive for anyone to do this is to hope their fic sells well and gets them some notoriety that they can leverage into an actual career.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:45 PM   #22
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

If they didn't chose to stay with the trusted pro authors, those authors could always branch off on their own continuity. Even without advances and contracts, I'd say a shared Trekverse with familiar writers contributing to it would drag a sizeable number of readers with them...probably enough to make it viable if the author gets a reasonable percentage.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:13 PM   #23
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

So either Chrisopher is right and the cream will rise to the top or some variant on "Gresham's Law" will prevail. My guess is a little of both.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:15 PM   #24
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Quality of work aside, why pay a higher amount to a professional when you can pay zero to a fanficcer and make pure profit?
Any fanficcer would be stupid to accept that. If it's contract work, in other words the publisher WANTS something from you, then he's gotta pay you for that.


Most of you know my opinion about fan fiction, copyright and payment, and this is one tiny little wee step towards that vision.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #25
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

I wonder if the license extends to all products in the franchise? Could, hypothetically, someone use David Mack's OCs and original races from his books in a Star Trek fanfic?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Quality of work aside, why pay a higher amount to a professional when you can pay zero to a fanficcer and make pure profit?
Any fanficcer would be stupid to accept that. If it's contract work, in other words the publisher WANTS something from you, then he's gotta pay you for that.


Most of you know my opinion about fan fiction, copyright and payment, and this is one tiny little wee step towards that vision.
That's the contract under Kindle and Kindle worlds: You write it, you post it on Amazon.com, you get a percentage; after Amazon takes their cut on top of "bandwidth/download" expenses". Only difference here is: You write, you post on Amazon, you get paid after the IP holder, Amazon, and expenses. So yes the publisher/IP holder pays you nothing. You do the work for free, hope it sells, and if it does they get paid out of your sells--effectively you paying them, like a vanity press set up, which is what Kindle publishing really is.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:30 PM   #26
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I wonder if the license extends to all products in the franchise? Could, hypothetically, someone use David Mack's OCs and original races from his books in a Star Trek fanfic?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Quality of work aside, why pay a higher amount to a professional when you can pay zero to a fanficcer and make pure profit?
Any fanficcer would be stupid to accept that. If it's contract work, in other words the publisher WANTS something from you, then he's gotta pay you for that.


Most of you know my opinion about fan fiction, copyright and payment, and this is one tiny little wee step towards that vision.
That's the contract under Kindle and Kindle worlds: You write it, you post it on Amazon.com, you get a percentage; after Amazon takes their cut on top of "bandwidth/download" expenses". Only difference here is: You write, you post on Amazon, you get paid after the IP holder, Amazon, and expenses. So yes the publisher/IP holder pays you nothing. You do the work for free, hope it sells, and if it does they get paid out of your sells--effectively you paying them, like a vanity press set up, which is what Kindle publishing really is.
Well, it's still your choice not to do it. And while the publisher effectly doesn't pay you anything, he doesn't tell you what to write either. You get paid for your hobby for god's sake. And if you are that great that the publisher wants more from you, that's the moment where they need to pay you on a professional level.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:38 PM   #27
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

I wonder how much of this thinking is the studios and Amazon wanting to cash in on the next "50 Shades of Gray"? One thing you here over and over again is "50 Shades of Gray" started out as a Twilight fanfic. So maybe they're trying to get in a position to cash in on the next big fanfic.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I wonder if the license extends to all products in the franchise? Could, hypothetically, someone use David Mack's OCs and original races from his books in a Star Trek fanfic?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Any fanficcer would be stupid to accept that. If it's contract work, in other words the publisher WANTS something from you, then he's gotta pay you for that.


Most of you know my opinion about fan fiction, copyright and payment, and this is one tiny little wee step towards that vision.
That's the contract under Kindle and Kindle worlds: You write it, you post it on Amazon.com, you get a percentage; after Amazon takes their cut on top of "bandwidth/download" expenses". Only difference here is: You write, you post on Amazon, you get paid after the IP holder, Amazon, and expenses. So yes the publisher/IP holder pays you nothing. You do the work for free, hope it sells, and if it does they get paid out of your sells--effectively you paying them, like a vanity press set up, which is what Kindle publishing really is.
Well, it's still your choice not to do it. And while the publisher effectly doesn't pay you anything, he doesn't tell you what to write either. You get paid for your hobby for god's sake. And if you are that great that the publisher wants more from you, that's the moment where they need to pay you on a professional level.
I sincerly doubt they'll pay a fanficcer on a professional level, when they can just sit back and wait for you to continue the story on your own. They're unlikely to approach you to do more, just keep an eye on teh ones that ring in the most royalties to their coffers.

As for telling what not to write: We don't know yet. Beyond slash-fic, we don't know what each studios or franchise's individual mandates will be in terms of content.

Yes, it's author's choice to do it or not, but I don't see it as some great coming of age of fanfiction. I see it as the studios saying "hey, we can't get free money!".
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Old May 23 2013, 09:40 PM   #28
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I wonder if the license extends to all products in the franchise? Could, hypothetically, someone use David Mack's OCs and original races from his books in a Star Trek fanfic?
Well, at the moment, it doesn't apply to Trek fiction, just to the properties belonging to Warner Bros.' Alloy Entertainment group -- meaning book series/CW shows like The Vampire Diaries, Pretty Little Liars, and Gossip Girl. Though the press coverage is predicting that other licensors will join in pretty quickly.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:54 PM   #29
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

Christopher wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I wonder if the license extends to all products in the franchise? Could, hypothetically, someone use David Mack's OCs and original races from his books in a Star Trek fanfic?
Well, at the moment, it doesn't apply to Trek fiction, just to the properties belonging to Warner Bros.' Alloy Entertainment group -- meaning book series/CW shows like The Vampire Diaries, Pretty Little Liars, and Gossip Girl. Though the press coverage is predicting that other licensors will join in pretty quickly.
That's why I'm using Trek: It's the most relevant hypothetical to the board. Plus I can see CBS doing this sort of thing with Trek--but a ton of restrictions, figure the Paramount's rebooted timeline would likely be hands off
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Old May 29 2013, 12:50 AM   #30
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Re: WTF: Amazon is going to see legal fan fiction

Every now and then I see unofficial star trek e-books for sale on amazon. Even listed in the recommend for you section
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