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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 22 2013, 02:26 PM   #16
sj4iy
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Overall STiD had less emotional resonance than TWoK. Pike's demise was more comparable to Spock's death. Kirk's death was hollow because you already knew it was very likely that they were going to use a ham-fisted re-set button.
And the original didn't? Just because his (completely unbelievable) resurrection spanned two films doesn't make it better. You can't just throw out unjustified cliffhangers, and no one was going to believe that Kirk was really dead. At least they bring him back in an way explainable in modern medicine (yes, it really is)- Spock just reappears for the hell of it. Personally, I preferred this movie over TWOK, because I liked the story better.
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Old May 22 2013, 11:03 PM   #17
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
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I doubt that there's a single "inspiration" here from Star Trek: Insurrection; similarities between films do not demonstrate that elements of one are inspired by the other, particularly when such elements are found in so many other antecedents. Drawing the conclusion of influence from happenstance is a common mistake.
Where else in canonical Star Trek had we seen a rogue/corrupt Admiral with connections to Section 31 as a major/main antagonist besides in Insurrection?

Note: Although Insurrection itself does not explicitly establish a connection between Dougherty and S31, his actions fit the bureau's modus operandi as established by DS9 and Enterprise.
Admiral Ross on DS9 was working with Section 31. Although he wasn't rogue or corrupt, and was in fact a pretty decent guy by the standards of Starfleet Admirals.
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Old May 22 2013, 11:12 PM   #18
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Flux Capacitor wrote: View Post
"He'll die!" "He's dead already..." exchange would have been more powerful than the "You'll flood the whole compartment" line.
Scotty and Kirk exchange those same lines in TWOK.
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Old May 23 2013, 12:11 AM   #19
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

sj4iy wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Overall STiD had less emotional resonance than TWoK. Pike's demise was more comparable to Spock's death. Kirk's death was hollow because you already knew it was very likely that they were going to use a ham-fisted re-set button.
And the original didn't? Just because his (completely unbelievable) resurrection spanned two films doesn't make it better. You can't just throw out unjustified cliffhangers, and no one was going to believe that Kirk was really dead. At least they bring him back in an way explainable in modern medicine (yes, it really is)- Spock just reappears for the hell of it. Personally, I preferred this movie over TWOK, because I liked the story better.
Nimoy genuinely wanted to leave the franchise. The mind meld was by no means an indication of what they had planned and the scene at the end was simply teasing us with the possibility - it was not guaranteed that they intended to do anything with it.

Admittedly, titling the next movie The Search for Spock was a bit of a giveaway...

That's not the same as foreshadowing within the same movie by saying, let's inject this magic blood into a dead tribble I just happen to have rotting in the medical bay for no good reason. That just screamed out plot device to pretty much everyone.

But yeah, I accept other people may prefer this version. It just didn't work as well for me personally. Pike's death did work though because the character was cooland we knew he wasn't coming back.
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Old May 23 2013, 05:43 PM   #20
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Erehwonnz24 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I find it funny, because by recreating the climax of another film as the climax of their own film, they indirectly admit that the previous film is far superior to theirs. It's not just a subtle homage, it's a complete lift.

There's a thread full of criticism against the re-use of a stock VFX shot of the exploding Bird of Prey in Star Trek: Generations. But this film re-used an entire part of another film's script.

At least the CLIMAX of a film should be original, shouldn't it?
I don't see why adapting a previous work indicates its superiority. If that were so, no work could ever improve on a past work. EDITED to add: if you mean that recreating is what indicates the original's superiority, I might agree--except that I don't think the new scene is at all a recreation of the scene in Khan.

As it is, I don't see the scene as a complete lift at all. The resemblance between the climaxes of the two films is marginal at best: both are set in a similar location and feature a similar sacrifice. The dialogue is almost entirely new. The narrative beats are new. The thematic resonance is new.

The original scene was primarily a farewell and a confirmation of a relationship between characters. Kirk used emotion to express his friendship. Spock used logic to express his friendship. These are the roles these two characters embraced throughout the bulk of two films and three seasons of television. The scene wasn't meant to push its characters to new places. Rather, it affirmed the relationships that already existed.

The new scene is more interested in character development, ushering both characters through a moment of transformations and firsts: Kirk finally admits that he fears, finally faces certain death, finally earns his captaincy, and he does these things through what he perceives as a logical act taught to him by Spock. Spock finally admits his own internal strife and puzzlement about his logical side, and he recognizes that his act was essentially emotional, culminating in a moment of raw anger in which his Vulcan side breaks down entirely. These movements feel earned, and there are a lot of them. It's a tightly and carefully written scene.

None of the above beats are part of the original seven or so lines in Khan, which primarily highlighted Spock as logical and Kirk as emotional. The original gave us stasis we longed for between these two; the reinterpretation gives us character movement and direction. I guess I just don't see this scene as a direct lift or lazy appropriation of material from Khan; only the most perfunctory elements have been retained, with the themes, dialogue, and character interactions working entirely differently. It works for me, possibly more so than the original.
Sums it up quite nicely.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:23 PM   #21
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I find it funny, because by recreating the climax of another film as the climax of their own film, they indirectly admit that the previous film is far superior to theirs. It's not just a subtle homage, it's a complete lift.

There's a thread full of criticism against the re-use of a stock VFX shot of the exploding Bird of Prey in Star Trek: Generations. But this film re-used an entire part of another film's script.

At least the CLIMAX of a film should be original, shouldn't it?
It's one scene. And that scene isn't the climax in either film.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:31 PM   #22
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's not the same as foreshadowing within the same movie by saying, let's inject this magic blood into a dead tribble I just happen to have rotting in the medical bay for no good reason. That just screamed out plot device to pretty much everyone.
That's why the blood was injected into the movie's plot in the sequence of events right after the title card.
The Tribble-scene was just a reminder for the audience, and a welcome distraction for Kirk as he was losing his argument with Khan.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:22 PM   #23
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Exactly so.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:30 PM   #24
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's not the same as foreshadowing within the same movie by saying, let's inject this magic blood into a dead tribble I just happen to have rotting in the medical bay for no good reason. That just screamed out plot device to pretty much everyone.
That's why the blood was injected into the movie's plot in the sequence of events right after the title card.
The Tribble-scene was just a reminder for the audience, and a welcome distraction for Kirk as he was losing his argument with Khan.
Well, the audience knows about Khan's blood, but McCoy doesn't.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:50 PM   #25
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Erehwonnz24 wrote: View Post
I don't see why adapting a previous work indicates its superiority. If that were so, no work could ever improve on a past work. EDITED to add: if you mean that recreating is what indicates the original's superiority, I might agree--except that I don't think the new scene is at all a recreation of the scene in Khan.

As it is, I don't see the scene as a complete lift at all. The resemblance between the climaxes of the two films is marginal at best: both are set in a similar location and feature a similar sacrifice. The dialogue is almost entirely new. The narrative beats are new. The thematic resonance is new.
STiD, as fun and enjoyable as it was, is NOT superior to TWoK.

Not even equivalent.

sarcasm mode - The new scene, as you call it, is so new that none of us identified it for its similarities to the climax of TWoK. /sarcasm mode
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Old May 23 2013, 10:33 PM   #26
sj4iy
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Irishman wrote: View Post
Erehwonnz24 wrote: View Post
I don't see why adapting a previous work indicates its superiority. If that were so, no work could ever improve on a past work. EDITED to add: if you mean that recreating is what indicates the original's superiority, I might agree--except that I don't think the new scene is at all a recreation of the scene in Khan.

As it is, I don't see the scene as a complete lift at all. The resemblance between the climaxes of the two films is marginal at best: both are set in a similar location and feature a similar sacrifice. The dialogue is almost entirely new. The narrative beats are new. The thematic resonance is new.
STiD, as fun and enjoyable as it was, is NOT superior to TWoK.

Not even equivalent.

sarcasm mode - The new scene, as you call it, is so new that none of us identified it for its similarities to the climax of TWoK. /sarcasm mode
It's not the same at all in meaning or in context at all. It's actually a great exercise in how just by changing a couple of things, you can create a completely different story. It's like if I said "She's gone"- well, context matters. If the context is that someone's elderly mother passed away, well, that's sad. But if the context is that of someone's daughter, that's much worse. So context matters, and in this case, there is a completely different context in each situation.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:34 PM   #27
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

I've always thought Wrath of Khan to be extremely overrated. It's enjoyable, but IMO no classic. Into Darkness blows it out of the water.
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Old May 24 2013, 06:48 AM   #28
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Just whipped this up, simply for the LOLZ.



I have it in avatar form if anyone wants it.
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Old May 24 2013, 06:55 AM   #29
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Oh my?!

Found this on tumblr.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:28 PM   #30
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Re: Into Darkness comparisons (Spoilers)

Flux Capacitor wrote: View Post
Just whipped this up, simply for the LOLZ.



I have it in avatar form if anyone wants it.
Holy shit! Took me a moment to realize what you did there. Good one!

Might actually be a fun idea, photoshopping Cumberbatch's face onto various images of Khan, see how it works out. I'd especially be interested to see if it can work with images of Khan from Space Seed.
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