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Old May 23 2013, 05:36 PM   #46
BillJ
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
In fairness when you label something with a familiar name then comparisons are inevitable.

Every time there's a new version of 007 or Superman (or whatever) it's always compared with previous versions.
Of course. But before you make those comparisons, take off the rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. I don't know how many times I've watched someone scream about how something Abrams did "wasn't Star Trek", yet had been done multiple times before in other Trek series including TOS.
When it comes to entertainment today the "rose tinted glasses" argument doesn't have the weight it once had for the simple reason is that today you can see the earlier versions right away in the here-and-now right alongside the new and not have to rely solely on memory.
Take a peek at the various Into Darkness threads and see just how rose-tinted those nostalgia glasses are...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=213937
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Old May 23 2013, 05:52 PM   #47
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Belz... wrote: View Post
RXTT wrote: View Post
What I want from Star Trek is to be forced to THINK. I can get entertainment from the Hangover franchise, or Star Wars
When's the last time Star Trek forced you to THINK ?

Really ? Not much of that in TOS or the previous movies. And the other series were mostly entertainment. Did you mean that you want smart or well-made science-fiction ? Then sure.

But force you to think ? I don't remember Star Trek doing that for me.

I watched TOS as a young kid, and it constantly forced me to think about issues in ways I never thought of before.

TNG, when I was a teenager, always made me think through moral and ethical dilemmas that otherwise I would not have had exposure to.

DS9 ran me through the wringer, asking me to think deeply about heavy heavy issues, never before tackled in TREK universe. It made me question things that no other TV sci-fi dared touch.

That is why I read sci-fi, and watch sci-fi shows and movies. I want to have my brain forced to tackle issues that otherwise I may never consider, whether those are technical/scientific issues, or morality issues, or inter-personal/inter-species issues.

Star Wars does not do that. I liken Star Wars more to a myth to be reflected upon, large symbols with which the viewer can add their own interpretation.
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Old May 23 2013, 05:59 PM   #48
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Yes, Yes and Yes again.. I used to love Star Trek before Voyager and Enterprise. Both of them completely killed off my enthusiasm for Trek, on top the horrible TNG movies that were made. I really had not been interested in Trek since the late 90s, and my husband, who used to LOVE Trek (he had models, books, even has gone to a couple of conventions) also stopped caring in the early 2000's. We both lamented that it had taken a terrible turn and had just become too bloated and restricted to do something new and exciting. Then came ST09, and it was like a breath of fresh air. I'm not saying it was a great movie- but it was fun, clever and absolutely shocking. After it was over, all I could think was "OMG, they DIDN'T fix the timeline...this is really completely different now".

World-building is more fun that world-adding, imo. I can't wait to see what happens now.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:26 PM   #49
Belz...
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Do we always have to keep going down the same rhetorical path? We're going to start deconstructing classic Trek yet again to bring it down to JJ Trek's level?
You're assuming that Abram's Trek is bad as a premise to your argument, here. I don't hold that opinion, so your argument is unsound.

The point is that Trek has always had intellectual qualities, but it wasn't necessarily "smart" or "forcing you to THINK".

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Entertainment and social commentary are not mutually exclusive.
I didn't say they were. I said I didn't like social commentary in my fiction.

BillJ wrote: View Post
And I happen to think that Star Trek Into Darkness works on those same levels.
Yes, absolutely. It's just not done in the same way.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:29 PM   #50
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Abrams did not save Star Trek...the fans did... Anybody who tells you differently is trying to sell you something.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:29 PM   #51
Belz...
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

RXTT wrote: View Post
I watched TOS as a young kid, and it constantly forced me to think about issues in ways I never thought of before.
To each his own, I suppose. And I watched Trek when I was pretty young, too. It had some smart episodes, to be sure, but it didn't make me think about "issues". Life makes me think about issues. I give zero credibility to fiction when trying to comment of humanity.

Star Wars does not do that.
What are you talking about ? How about Obi-Wan's "point of view" speech ?
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Old May 23 2013, 06:31 PM   #52
Belz...
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

CDR6 wrote: View Post
Abrams did not save Star Trek...the fans did... Anybody who tells you differently is trying to sell you something.
Oh, this reminds me so much of the crap that Star Wars fans said when Episode 1 came out. "Lucas didn't make Star Wars. The fans did."

Bullshit.

The fans WATCH Star Wars or Star Trek, and then the studio determines if the product is popular and worth continuing. Then they may take feedback from viewers, etc. But it's the guys MAKING the show who MAKE the show.

Same thing here. What saved Trek is that Paramount made a new movie, and people in general liked it. Not just the fans.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:46 PM   #53
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

In the meantime CBS continues to pull money from tie-in merchandise from the pre-existing series. Hell, they even turned down Abrams' pitch to roll it all under one umbrella so he could make his version the most prominent one.

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/articl...mbitions-91766
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Old May 23 2013, 06:51 PM   #54
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
In the meantime CBS continues to pull money from tie-in merchandise from the pre-existing series. Hell, they even turned down Abrams' pitch to roll it all under one umbrella so he could make his version the most prominent one.
Not quite.

Bad Robot wanted CBS to quit licensing TOS material during the movie run. The rub was that CBS didn't want to give up twenty million a year. It would have happened if Bad Robot had been willing to write a check for twenty million a year to CBS.

The other spin-off merchandising would've been unaffected.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:54 PM   #55
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

He wanted to be the only game in town at least while he was in charge. That speaks volumes to me. But I don't want this subject to drift too far off course.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:55 PM   #56
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

I guess it all depends on whether you're talking about general audiences or the hardcore fanbase.

I mean, technically, Dark Shadows fandom is still around and there's the occasional comic book or novel, but I'm not sure anyone would argue that Dark Shadows is really a going concern these days.

Nostalgia is not enough. Sometimes you need to reinvent characters and series for a new generation . . . like they did with Battlestar Galactica.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:56 PM   #57
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
In the meantime CBS continues to pull money from tie-in merchandise from the pre-existing series.
Of course they are. The tie-ins benefit from the overall increase of attention to the Star Trek Brand.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:57 PM   #58
Greg Cox
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
In the meantime CBS continues to pull money from tie-in merchandise from the pre-existing series.
Of course they are. The tie-ins benefit from the overall increase of attention to the Star Trek Brand.
From your lips to the Great Bird's ears . . .
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Old May 23 2013, 06:58 PM   #59
Robert D. Robot
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Years ago I went to see Trek movies either by myself or with a couple of buddies who were/are fellow science fiction fans. Guys. Could not drag a date there.

In recent years, I went to see "Green Lantern", "The Avengers", and "Prometheus" with a colleague of my wife's who loves graphic novels and sometimes carries a sonic screwdriver with him.

My wife is not interested in Trek, or science fiction in general, and I would not even ask her to go, HOWEVER, I am going to see STID on Saturday with three of her lovely female colleagues who are excited about the movie. As one of them told me when I was invited to join them, "The last movie wasn't corny, and you weren't expected to be a Star Trek nerd in order to enjoy it. It was good." (or something to that effect).

Here, we might (and do) argue about what we prefer in Trek movies, novels, and series, but it can not be denied that Abrams has made Trek more appealing to a broader audience. With each new incarnation of Trek, there are fans who say that the franchise has been ruined with that new incarnation. I am not one of them. I welcome Abrams' interpretation of this alternate universe and happy to see people in the theaters other than only the ones carrying their communicator replicas.
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Old May 23 2013, 07:01 PM   #60
Greg Cox
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

My local librarian, who is hardly a fangirl, was raving about the new movie the other day . . . . and thought it was "much better than The Great Gatsby."

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she never saw Nemesis.
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