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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 22 2013, 10:32 PM   #76
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Belz... wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
Maybe some way a devotee could rationalize it, but clearly that kind of continuity was not a factor in Kaufman's thinking.
Sure, but that's not my point. What I'm saying is that it's quite possible we'd have a refit Enterprise that would look so different fromt the original that this line of thinking would be impossible. Basically, I'm asking where do we draw the line ?

Yes, it's fiction. This is why I call it a retcon because if it weren't fiction, such a refit would never happen. But I'm more than happy to agree to disagree with you and CE Evans on this.
But in the fictional world of Star Trek, it was called a refit and a redesign. There's really nothing to retcon (and what would you retcon anyway? That it didn't happen?).
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Old May 22 2013, 10:52 PM   #77
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But in the fictional world of Star Trek, it was called a refit and a redesign. There's really nothing to retcon (and what would you retcon anyway? That it didn't happen?).
Sorry, by retcon I meant that the Enterprise always looked that way, but that the nacelles and possibly struts were changed.

And of course, you're right, it's fiction and not really important. But we're Trekkies and we like to nitpick and over-analyse, don't we ?
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Old May 22 2013, 11:07 PM   #78
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Ah, I see.
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Old May 22 2013, 11:25 PM   #79
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

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It was in the early 90's when TNG was huge, that the Okuda's Star Trek Chronology was released, which moved around all the dates, rendering the prior book obsolete. The writers of all subsequent Treks switched to this new dating system.
It's worth noting that the Okuda chronology was extrapolating from what had then been firmly established onscreen. The TNG season 1 finale, "The Neutral Zone," gave Trek's first onscreen mention of the current date in Earth years (2364).
In "Encounter at Farpoint" Data states that he graduated "Class of '78" which is consistent with FASA's updated version of the SFC timeline (in their Next Generation Officer's Manual), which places TNG at the very beginning of the 24th century.

Of course, by that time the SFC dates had already been invalidated by STII's Romulan Ale (although why would a Romulan drink have an Earth year on the label?) and Kirk's comment in STIV that he's from the late 23rd century.
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Old May 23 2013, 12:27 AM   #80
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Those prior examples fit in just fine with the tradition of often-contradictory vague date references in TOS. "The Neutral Zone" still stands out as giving the first definitive onscreen date, no inferences required.

Back in the day, I'd assumed the date on the Romulan ale bottle was supposed to be a stardate...it hadn't even occurred to me to think of it as an Earth calendar date.

The class of '78...that must have been the UESPA Academy, where Data roomed with a Vulcanian.
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Old May 23 2013, 01:05 AM   #81
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Back in the day, I'd assumed the date on the Romulan ale bottle was supposed to be a stardate...it hadn't even occurred to me to think of it as an Earth calendar date.
I was just about to do a "back in the day" post myself. I remember hearing at a con the idea that the 2283 on the bottle was a stardate, which would have placed it during Kirk's 5-year mission.
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Old May 23 2013, 01:10 AM   #82
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Plus, in TWOK, the Romulan ale segment discussed it taking a while to ferment. Interpreting 2283 as a stardate provides a good long while for the ale to ferment; interpret 2283 as a year, and that part makes no sense.
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Old May 23 2013, 01:34 AM   #83
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Back in the day, I'd assumed the date on the Romulan ale bottle was supposed to be a stardate...it hadn't even occurred to me to think of it as an Earth calendar date.
I was just about to do a "back in the day" post myself. I remember hearing at a con the idea that the 2283 on the bottle was a stardate, which would have placed it during Kirk's 5-year mission.
That's something I thought of before, but it could be either. As for why a readable date is on the label, I assume they relabeled it for distribution in Federation space.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:56 PM   #84
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Plus, in TWOK, the Romulan ale segment discussed it taking a while to ferment. Interpreting 2283 as a stardate provides a good long while for the ale to ferment; interpret 2283 as a year, and that part makes no sense.
Any year other than the current one would make the bottle suspiciously old for ale.

OTOH, if 2283 is to be interpreted as a stardate, we have to accept that 6000 SD units represent some fifteen years of Kirk's life - meaning the stardate system must have "hidden digits", or else stardate zero would have been within Kirk's original mission as well and most of the immediate Trek history would consist of negative stardates. Which doesn't seem to be the case, as we never hear of negative dates, but we do hear of old yet positively stardated events in TOS (such as the background on Kodos).

With hidden digits, Kirk would be left wondering whether the ale is fifteen years old, or a hundred and fifteen... And McCoy would be giving him a somewhat different reply!

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Old May 23 2013, 10:55 PM   #85
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Timo wrote: View Post
OTOH, if 2283 is to be interpreted as a stardate, we have to accept that 6000 SD units represent some fifteen years of Kirk's life - meaning the stardate system must have "hidden digits", or else stardate zero would have been within Kirk's original mission as well and most of the immediate Trek history would consist of negative stardates. Which doesn't seem to be the case, as we never hear of negative dates, but we do hear of old yet positively stardated events in TOS (such as the background on Kodos).

With hidden digits, Kirk would be left wondering whether the ale is fifteen years old, or a hundred and fifteen... And McCoy would be giving him a somewhat different reply!

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I still think it's supposed to be an actual date.

The stardate has never been a system with set rules. In TNG they decided to put it at 1000 per year (explaining away that impulse acceleration accounts for distortion, though that doesn't work for DS9, which uses the same system). I actually like 1000 per year because it's very very different from the current date.

Of course it wouldn't be very practical, and it doesn't fit very well with the stuff from TOS. But if TMP was on stardate 7400, that would put it 18 months after Turnabout Intruder, at stardate 5900. Cycling back to zero after 9999 would put TWOK's 8100 less than 11 years after TMP (which is pretty close to the official dates), and 15 years after Space Seed (3100).
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Old May 24 2013, 03:02 AM   #86
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Timo wrote: View Post
Any year other than the current one would make the bottle suspiciously old for ale.
For Terran ale, yes it would. Does Terran ale have a vintage year, like wine, though?
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Old May 25 2013, 02:38 AM   #87
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
although why would a Romulan drink have an Earth year on the label?
Importer's "Best before" or "Use by" date?
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Old May 25 2013, 09:02 PM   #88
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
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Any year other than the current one would make the bottle suspiciously old for ale.
For Terran ale, yes it would. Does Terran ale have a vintage year, like wine, though?
An ale question? We should ask T'Bonz.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
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although why would a Romulan drink have an Earth year on the label?
Importer's "Best before" or "Use by" date?
Or perhaps Romulan smugglers intentionally labelled it in English so that it could be sold in the Federation. Nobody's going to buy a bottle of something if they can't read the label.
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Old May 26 2013, 10:33 PM   #89
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Our own Chris Bennett saved the whole secondary hull and engines in one of his novels.
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Old May 27 2013, 08:50 PM   #90
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Of course it wouldn't be very practical, and it doesn't fit very well with the stuff from TOS. But if TMP was on stardate 7400, that would put it 18 months after Turnabout Intruder, at stardate 5900. Cycling back to zero after 9999 would put TWOK's 8100 less than 11 years after TMP (which is pretty close to the official dates), and 15 years after Space Seed (3100).
I'd actually say it does fit pretty well in that sense. Not to mention having TOS span stardates from 1300 to 5900 would be just perfect for the 1000 SD/yr model...

Alas, even if we ignore TAS, the other TOS movies are the weak point of this model. And 18 months between "Turnabout Intruder" and ST:TMP is enough for the refit but not enough for Kirk sitting behind a desk for 2.5 years...

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