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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: 'Who' is John Hurt
The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell) 9 9.09%
The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War 57 57.58%
The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor 3 3.03%
Something else entirely 30 30.30%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 22 2013, 12:42 AM   #91
Christopher
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
She'd presumably listed her legal guardian in the school records as her grandfather Doctor Foreman (I wonder what first name she used for him)
Probably John if the later "John Smith" is any indication.
Except the use of that name wasn't the Doctor's idea, at least not as originally presented. The first use of the John Smith alias in canon was by Jamie in "The Wheel in Space," without the Doctor's knowledge. The Doctor then used the alias again in "The War Games" and subsequently when he was exiled to Earth at the start of his third incarnation. (Jamie's independent coinage was repeated in the McGann movie when Chang Lee gave the wounded Doctor's name as John Smith when admitting him to the hospital.)

Although more recent works have complicated things. "The Vampires of Venice" showed that the Doctor's library card featured Hartnell's face and the name "Dr. J. Smith." Some tie-ins have indicated that the First Doctor used the alias when renting the Foreman scrapyard and picked it up from Susan's favorite rock group, John Smith and the Common Men (to whom Susan was listening in "An Unearthly Child"). So you could be right in light of later retcons.
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Old May 22 2013, 02:16 AM   #92
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I would have laughed - and cheered - if the Name of the Doctor, after all that drama, turned out to be simply "John Smith." (Or more likely Jonsmith, in Gallifreyan parlance.) The oldest question in the universe, hiding in plain view - well, guess what? So was the answer. Would have added more weight to Eleven's speech in the end about his real name not being the point. Or, to borrow from Batman, "It's not who I am that matters. It's what I do."

Last edited by Nightowl1701; May 22 2013 at 03:32 AM.
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Old May 22 2013, 04:24 AM   #93
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

One possibility is that John Hurt is indeed playing the last Doctor; the one who dies. This doesn't mean that he has to be the 12th or 13th Doctor, or whatever, and he could be the 500th. Maybe the 'peace and sanity' he was talking about was his own, and that after so many life-times, and with all of those memories, and painful losses, he decided that he couldn't continue on, and wanted to end it, and so he chose not to regenerate. Since The Doctor seems to have an overwhelming will to live, this act could be considered to be against the basic principles of The Doctor, which is why this incarnation is not deserving of the moniker.
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Old May 22 2013, 04:34 AM   #94
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
One possibility is that John Hurt is indeed playing the last Doctor; the one who dies. This doesn't mean that he has to be the 12th or 13th Doctor, or whatever, and he could be the 500th. Maybe the 'peace and sanity' he was talking about was his own, and that after so many life-times, and with all of those memories, and painful losses, he decided that he couldn't continue on, and wanted to end it, and so he chose not to regenerate. Since The Doctor seems to have an overwhelming will to live, this act could be considered to be against the basic principles of The Doctor, which is why this incarnation is not deserving of the moniker.
Perhaps not so dramatic as ending his own life, but along the same lines...maybe this isn't about something the Doctor did. Maybe it's about something he didn't do. The Doctor helps people. Maybe John Hurt's Doctor made a decision to NOT step in like he normally would; maybe he allowed an atrocity to happen that he could have otherwise prevented.
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Old May 22 2013, 06:17 AM   #95
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Chrono85 wrote: View Post
One possibility is that John Hurt is indeed playing the last Doctor; the one who dies. This doesn't mean that he has to be the 12th or 13th Doctor, or whatever, and he could be the 500th. Maybe the 'peace and sanity' he was talking about was his own, and that after so many life-times, and with all of those memories, and painful losses, he decided that he couldn't continue on, and wanted to end it, and so he chose not to regenerate. Since The Doctor seems to have an overwhelming will to live, this act could be considered to be against the basic principles of The Doctor, which is why this incarnation is not deserving of the moniker.
Perhaps not so dramatic as ending his own life, but along the same lines...maybe this isn't about something the Doctor did. Maybe it's about something he didn't do. The Doctor helps people. Maybe John Hurt's Doctor made a decision to NOT step in like he normally would; maybe he allowed an atrocity to happen that he could have otherwise prevented.
I really like that idea. Reminds me a bit of Deep Space 9's "Hippocratic Oath" where Bashir chooses to help the Jem'hadar, although that really didn't have much to do with apathy.
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Old May 22 2013, 09:44 AM   #96
intrinsical
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Matt Smith's Doctor specifically said Hurt's incarnation broke the promise of being The Doctor and did not deserve to be called The Doctor. I don't understand why some believe Hurt's Doctor is a pre-Doctor. Short of some time paradox, a pre-Hartnell incarnation would not have taken up the mantel of The Doctor and could not have broken the promise of being The Doctor.
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Old May 22 2013, 10:16 AM   #97
JoeZhang
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Emh wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Chrono85 wrote: View Post
One possibility is that John Hurt is indeed playing the last Doctor; the one who dies. This doesn't mean that he has to be the 12th or 13th Doctor, or whatever, and he could be the 500th. Maybe the 'peace and sanity' he was talking about was his own, and that after so many life-times, and with all of those memories, and painful losses, he decided that he couldn't continue on, and wanted to end it, and so he chose not to regenerate. Since The Doctor seems to have an overwhelming will to live, this act could be considered to be against the basic principles of The Doctor, which is why this incarnation is not deserving of the moniker.
Perhaps not so dramatic as ending his own life, but along the same lines...maybe this isn't about something the Doctor did. Maybe it's about something he didn't do. The Doctor helps people. Maybe John Hurt's Doctor made a decision to NOT step in like he normally would; maybe he allowed an atrocity to happen that he could have otherwise prevented.
I really like that idea. Reminds me a bit of Deep Space 9's "Hippocratic Oath" where Bashir chooses to help the Jem'hadar, although that really didn't have much to do with apathy.
I guess but the line "What I did, I did in the name of peace and sanity' suggests agency.
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Old May 22 2013, 10:43 AM   #98
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post

Perhaps not so dramatic as ending his own life, but along the same lines...maybe this isn't about something the Doctor did. Maybe it's about something he didn't do. The Doctor helps people. Maybe John Hurt's Doctor made a decision to NOT step in like he normally would; maybe he allowed an atrocity to happen that he could have otherwise prevented.
I really like that idea. Reminds me a bit of Deep Space 9's "Hippocratic Oath" where Bashir chooses to help the Jem'hadar, although that really didn't have much to do with apathy.
I guess but the line "What I did, I did in the name of peace and sanity' suggests agency.
Yeah, it's more understandable that this action was something he chose to do. While the Valeyard and other ideas sound cool, I don't see any show runners ever having the Doctor actually become evil in some fashion, nor will the shoot the golden goose by having the Doctor's real and final death played out in any defined fashion. Redemption is something that has stood out a lot in several fashions this season. The Doctor starts in a monastery, Akhaten is about lives past and possible through the leaf, Cold War is a forgiveness tale for Saldak, Hide also for Dr Palmer, Journey explicitly brings up the Time War, and Porridge's talking about the poor bugger who blew up the galaxy to stop the cybermen. RTD's run dealt with the Doctor's survivor guilt, and I expect Moffat is going to deal with forgiveness. The Doctor expressly hoped for that in The Doctor's Wife.

Now, with a Doctor with some unforgivable sin, I expect the next story to deal with the Doctor finding personal forgiveness, most likely from the Time War. The Moment, or whatever the big bomb was called, may even have been his idea. He might have felt the war would consume all reality and he developed the bomb as a means to get the sides to stop. The didn't, he pushed the button.

The Doctor keeps being consumed with guilt, but whether he's listening to speeches from Davros or the GI, he's listening to ethical criticisms from hypocrites. Vastra has pointed out his tendency to blame himself for what he can't control. The Doctor accepts the JHDoctor had no choice in his actions, but the Doctor can't accept his having done whatever it was. I expect the story to be about the Doctor learning that he can't always control things and sometimes there's no other choice. And, he's got to forgive himself and stop blaming himself.
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Old May 22 2013, 01:00 PM   #99
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

intrinsical wrote: View Post
Matt Smith's Doctor specifically said Hurt's incarnation broke the promise of being The Doctor and did not deserve to be called The Doctor. I don't understand why some believe Hurt's Doctor is a pre-Doctor. Short of some time paradox, a pre-Hartnell incarnation would not have taken up the mantel of The Doctor and could not have broken the promise of being The Doctor.
Why not? The Pre-Hartnell Doctor, may have decided to change his horrible ways and even gave himself a new name of The Doctor, in order to celebrate that change and then he failed to keep that promise and did something he felt was necessary but was viewed as horrible and unforgivable by the future incarnations
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Old May 22 2013, 01:03 PM   #100
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.
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Old May 22 2013, 02:16 PM   #101
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.
But the Doctor didn't originally have any agenda of helping people. When we first met him, he was an antihero at best, a self-centered and arrogant individual. In "An Unearthly Child," he even attempted to murder a prehistoric human in order to escape and get back to the TARDIS. It was the example set by Ian and Barbara, their determination to help people on their travels, that softened his heart and awoke his potential for activism. (Although by now there are probably a number of novels and short stories that show him as more of a do-gooder before that day in Totters Lane.)
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Old May 22 2013, 02:39 PM   #102
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
"It's not who I am that matters. It's what I do."
I just remembered what River said at Demon's run about what the meaning of Doctor is or can be. I wonder if there is a correlation there.

I am sorry if someone already came up with that, I may have missed it in the 3 pages of this thread.
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Old May 22 2013, 02:48 PM   #103
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I just rewatched The Fires of Pompeii and realized that we've been through all of this before. In that story, the Doctor has to sacrifice 30,000 innocent people in order to save the world. It's set up as an explicit either/or decision.

It sounds like if the common Time War theory is correct, that it's this basic scenario but amped up to a universal scale! The Doctor didn't seem to troubled over this decision, a bit, but not nearly as much as Donna.

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Old May 22 2013, 02:53 PM   #104
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Thanks for empahsizing that point, Christopher. I wanted to state something similar, but you stated better than I could have done. We start to see a shift by the conclusion of part 2 of "The Edge of Destruction". At least he acknowledges Barbara and Ian are not "dead weight". I have not examined what survives of "Marco Polo", so I have to ask; does he become more involved in that story, or is it later?

So taking those aspects into account, the Doctor does not leave Gallifrey to "save the universe". That came later. He "fled" (though he claims 'exile' in the earliest serials).

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old May 22 2013, 03:03 PM   #105
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.
If that's in reply to post, why would my scenario require Pre-Hartnell Doctor to leave Gallifrey?
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