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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old May 21 2013, 07:45 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Real spacecraft can survive reentry too, but you probably wouldn't want to land one in the middle of an exploding volcano.
Yup. Although as discussed, real spacecraft fly through air very fast, because they have no engine power, while Trek shuttles fly through air very slowly, because they have engine power to burn. No need for heat shields on shuttles, then.

As for the corona of stars, I'm pretty sure that's something that starships and shuttlecraft CAN'T do, which is the whole reason why the 24th century "metaphasic shield" thing was such an important invention.
...Confusingly, "I, Borg" featured the heroes hiding their ship by "taking up a position in the star's chromosphere", long before "Suspicions" introduced the metaphasics. But the chromosphere is a much cooler place than the corona, at least on its outer parts, and thus there's nothing downright contradictory about it. Indeed, the chromosphere might average at 5000-6000 K, which is more or less volcano conditions.

Also, when the shuttle flies into the corona in "Suspicions", it only engages the metaphasics shortly before hitting 900,000 Kelvin, indicating that standard shields perform well enough right until the border of the corona.

Is that news to you? That's been established since Space Seed aired in 1966.
It's a bit thornier than that, although since I haven't seen the movie, I don't know what the degree of ignorance there really is.

The episode only established that cryonics went out of fashion in the early 21st century, while later episodes established they remained in fashion for interstellar applications until 2210 at least and thus the "Space Seed" thing was about interplanetary applications. This does not establish that the technology would have been "lost" somehow, or that other applications such as in medicine would not have persisted.

And the VOY reference to 2210 use indicates that Kirk's dad should have known very well what these devices were like. We have no solid proof about Kirk himself being too young to learn about them (he got an explanation in "Space Seed", but we don't know if he needed it), but apparently the dialogue in the movie suggests that Kirk and his age-mates would only have seen pictures, not the real McCoys, during their studies in the 2250s. So we have a plot need for a "window" between cryonics and advanced stasis, but the window appears to be suspiciously short for any knowledge to have been lost.

I still don't see how you can reliably transport to co-ordinates 90 light years away.
If you have studied the coordinates shortly beforehand, it shouldn't be a problem - they won't change all that much in the few seconds or whatever it takes to get there. And Harrison's escape route was clearly preplanned, with vast resources.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 21 2013, 11:35 PM   #17
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

I wonder if the "cold fusion" device might have been some sort of...I dunno...maybe it caused a phase change in the spacetime around the volcano...and froze it all the way down to the magma chamber...???

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
bryce wrote: View Post
Yeah, this movie had it's share of dumb Hollywood "science"...

You are forgetting how the shuttles and ships, which have shields and can survive phasers and photon torpedoes and re-entry and the corona's of stars, etc, etc, etc...can't survive the measly heat of a *volcano*!?
Real spacecraft can survive reentry too, but you probably wouldn't want to land one in the middle of an exploding volcano.

As for the corona of stars, I'm pretty sure that's something that starships and shuttlecraft CAN'T do, which is the whole reason why the 24th century "metaphasic shield" thing was such an important invention.
Well maybe not the corona - but when the TOS Enterprise sling-shotted around the Sun, it seemed to get pretty darn close.

Good point about re-entry...but still, the Enterprise itself, with shields, couldn't stand the heat?

I would have prefered some excuse about how the volcano's weird magnetic properties that messed up the transporters and sensors, also messed up the shuttles computers of something. Heat alone just seems...silly.

Then again, if the same type of shuttle could stand the radiation and magnetic fields around *Jupiter* - a volcano shoudl have been a walk in the park.

And maybe I am wrong. 23rd century Alternate Universe shuttles just may not be built for that kind of heat. (But I imagine that they have *some* sort of radiation protection...)

Then there's the "transwarp beaming" device (which I assume works like similar to TNG's "subspace transporter"...?)
No, it works EXACTLY like the transporter system Scotty and Kirk used in the first movie, which was installed in his shuttlecraft. Probably a miniaturized version cooked up by Section 31.[/QUOTE]


I mean that I think that Scotty's "Transwarp Beaming" is possibily some sort of the ultra-long-range "Subspace Transporter" that we saw in TNG, and that Ferengi Ex-Damon used to beam across light years into Picard's Ready Room.

Just saying that they may be two different names for the same technology...or two very similar technologies - like "Transwarp Drive" and "Slipstream Drive" are very similar technologies.
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Old May 22 2013, 02:57 AM   #18
bullethead
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Timo wrote: View Post
Is that news to you? That's been established since Space Seed aired in 1966.
It's a bit thornier than that, although since I haven't seen the movie, I don't know what the degree of ignorance there really is.

The episode only established that cryonics went out of fashion in the early 21st century, while later episodes established they remained in fashion for interstellar applications until 2210 at least and thus the "Space Seed" thing was about interplanetary applications. This does not establish that the technology would have been "lost" somehow, or that other applications such as in medicine would not have persisted.

And the VOY reference to 2210 use indicates that Kirk's dad should have known very well what these devices were like. We have no solid proof about Kirk himself being too young to learn about them (he got an explanation in "Space Seed", but we don't know if he needed it), but apparently the dialogue in the movie suggests that Kirk and his age-mates would only have seen pictures, not the real McCoys, during their studies in the 2250s. So we have a plot need for a "window" between cryonics and advanced stasis, but the window appears to be suspiciously short for any knowledge to have been lost.
Having read the novel, it's a case of the technology being outmoded and not lost, but things get muddier when McCoy decides to stick Kirk in a cryotube instead of just using a stasis field. Now it could just be a case of "the thing is already here for me to use," but the fact that they don't even mention stasis is a bit odd. I think that stasis is mentioned in one of the Ongoing comics though, so who knows what's up.
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Old May 22 2013, 03:09 AM   #19
SeerSGB
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

bullethead wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Is that news to you? That's been established since Space Seed aired in 1966.
It's a bit thornier than that, although since I haven't seen the movie, I don't know what the degree of ignorance there really is.

The episode only established that cryonics went out of fashion in the early 21st century, while later episodes established they remained in fashion for interstellar applications until 2210 at least and thus the "Space Seed" thing was about interplanetary applications. This does not establish that the technology would have been "lost" somehow, or that other applications such as in medicine would not have persisted.

And the VOY reference to 2210 use indicates that Kirk's dad should have known very well what these devices were like. We have no solid proof about Kirk himself being too young to learn about them (he got an explanation in "Space Seed", but we don't know if he needed it), but apparently the dialogue in the movie suggests that Kirk and his age-mates would only have seen pictures, not the real McCoys, during their studies in the 2250s. So we have a plot need for a "window" between cryonics and advanced stasis, but the window appears to be suspiciously short for any knowledge to have been lost.
Having read the novel, it's a case of the technology being outmoded and not lost, but things get muddier when McCoy decides to stick Kirk in a cryotube instead of just using a stasis field. Now it could just be a case of "the thing is already here for me to use," but the fact that they don't even mention stasis is a bit odd. I think that stasis is mentioned in one of the Ongoing comics though, so who knows what's up.
Another downside to stasis would be the ship's power was dodgy. They were stable, but who knows how long that would last? Grab a portable, self contained, life support unit while you've got it.
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Old May 22 2013, 03:10 AM   #20
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

stj wrote: View Post
There are some wonderful new ideas in the new movie Into Darkness, are there not? Surely worthy of discussion?

How could a wet suit make a person survive a long fall, then sink effortlessly and then swim unaffected by water pressure. Particularly without visible helmets.

How can a hand-held devise pump massive quantities of heat from equally massive quantities of lava, without generating more heat as required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

How can the phrase "cold fusion" be reconciled as somehow referring to the previous?

What power source could be in a ring sufficient to create the explosion in London? Could enough antimatter be inside the containment ring?

How can we reconcile the notion of warp drive with any determinate "speed" with the travel times in the movie?

Why can't the Klingons detect the vessel when it's leaving, after a patrol disappears, that they couldn't detect when it arrived?

How can the Enterprise be bigger on the inside than the outside?

How can concrete floors be a useful spaceship construction material?

How can we justify the enormous empty spaces inside the Enterprise?

How did the Federation abolish Newton's First Law of Motion, so that people who fall off rails [i]in a free falling spaceship[/] would immediately fall even faster even though the Earth's gravitational field is unchanged?

Lastly, why would the Federation design a ship so that the crew could fall to its death?
Haha, I get it. You mock the movie.
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Old May 22 2013, 10:29 AM   #21
Timo
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Regarding the cryopods, they seem to present us with a choice.

* Are they the original pods from the Botany Bay? If so, this is a solid bit of technology retconning (possibly the first in the nuMovies), as we know what the "Space Seed" cryo-shelves looked like and these can't be the same thing, not even with slight visual "reimagining".

* Is continuity intact? If so, then Marcus re-packed the survivors from the Botany Bay in these chambers, which he purchased in the late 23rd century. Perhaps S31 is the only supplier, but still.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 22 2013, 01:17 PM   #22
stj
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Lee Enfield wrote: View Post
Haha, I get it. You mock the movie.
Not quite. I mock the set designs a little, but anyone with eyes already did that for Abrams' last venture. Over and over throughout the movie the sets screamed "movie" and whispered "made by idiots!" This doesn't help improve the experience.

The clanging "cold fusion" sounded so grotesquely stupid it made me wince (literally.)

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on! Rendering the Nibiru sequence a kind of joke makes "Needs of the many..." a kind of punch line. In a movie that turned out to be about redoing high points ("beats") from Wrath of Khan, instead of being its own movie, that is very damaging.

The second thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief was the ship falling but people not being in free fall. The scenes really did not suggest the ship's gravity was malfunctioning. They suggested the ship was rolling, and that the downward pull was always towards the Earth, i.e., from the Earth. Whoever suggested the future was atheist clearly was talking from his ass, because only God knows why they'd leave the gravity on while they're rolling.

The rest is the usual rationalization game. Many in the thread are very entertaining, nicely done.

The scene that really raises the size issue was the one where the camera pulls back from the picture window on the bridge. It doesn't really pull back enough to diminish Kirk to a size that fits with the supposed dimensions of the ship. The inescapable (for me, at least) impression is that the picture window and Kirk are significant figures in comparison to the saucer surface. Which makes many interior scenes take place on a ship to small for the sets shown. Perhaps it seems unfair that a visual trumps the dialogue?

PS Marcus is the one talking about Section 31 and he's lying through his teeth, raising the question whether there really is such a thing.
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Old May 22 2013, 05:17 PM   #23
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.
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Old May 22 2013, 05:30 PM   #24
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

B.J. wrote: View Post
Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.
Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-th...ht-h-509076595
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Old May 22 2013, 05:45 PM   #25
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Neat set of models. Thanks for the link.
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Old May 22 2013, 06:10 PM   #26
SeerSGB
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Timo wrote: View Post
Regarding the cryopods, they seem to present us with a choice.

* Are they the original pods from the Botany Bay? If so, this is a solid bit of technology retconning (possibly the first in the nuMovies), as we know what the "Space Seed" cryo-shelves looked like and these can't be the same thing, not even with slight visual "reimagining".

* Is continuity intact? If so, then Marcus re-packed the survivors from the Botany Bay in these chambers, which he purchased in the late 23rd century. Perhaps S31 is the only supplier, but still.

Timo Saloniemi
I'm thinking he or Khan repacked them. The controls looked modern to the movie and it would make sense to have them in containers that he (Marcus) knew--or assumed--Khan didn't have a back door into.
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Old May 22 2013, 06:27 PM   #27
B.J.
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

King Daniel wrote: View Post
B.J. wrote: View Post
Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.
Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-th...ht-h-509076595
Nice, thanks! Assuming that the order they have those pics in matches the arrangement on the desk, then the ringship was *before* the Phoenix. Considering that everything else was arranged chronologically, what does that mean for the history of warp flight? Perhaps the ringship was an earlier failed experiment? Or maybe not quite failed, just a stepping stone to actual FTL flight?
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Old May 22 2013, 08:14 PM   #28
Lee Enfield
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

B.J. wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
B.J. wrote: View Post
Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.
Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-th...ht-h-509076595
Nice, thanks! Assuming that the order they have those pics in matches the arrangement on the desk, then the ringship was *before* the Phoenix. Considering that everything else was arranged chronologically, what does that mean for the history of warp flight? Perhaps the ringship was an earlier failed experiment? Or maybe not quite failed, just a stepping stone to actual FTL flight?
Perhaps no FTL at all. Just near space exploration. Mars Colonies perhaps? Neptune Research?
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Old May 22 2013, 09:00 PM   #29
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

Yeah, they could really use a science adviser on these films.
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Old May 23 2013, 05:05 AM   #30
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Re: New Treknology Into Darkness

stj wrote: View Post
Lee Enfield wrote: View Post
Haha, I get it. You mock the movie.
Not quite.
Well, then I mocked the movie.





P.S. On a more rational thought: I like your contemplations. But Abrams doesn't care shit for our beloved Reasoning-Game. So in the end, it won't make much sense.
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