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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 21 2013, 04:35 PM   #76
Edit_XYZ
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The borg sent a cube for the federation a year after encountering it, then another after a few more years.
That, when the borg could easily have sent thousands of cubes.

You don't send so little resources if you actually care about conquering the opponent.
Well you're the one who said they had millions of cubes. Would it kill them to send 15 and be done with it ?
The borg would have to care enough in order to send 15 cubes (BTW, Voy "Scorpion" establishes the borg has millions of cubes).
It doesn't do much for the federation's ego, does it?: to find out the federation's archenemy cares about it so little, it can't even be bothered to send a measly 15 cubes to finish it off.

An arguments-free dictum. How very not convincing.
Again, would you mind being more civil ? I don't see anything else than argument by fiat from you either. Chill a bit.
First - argument by fiat. Do you see me arguing the existence of god? Or breaking Occam's razor in my arguments?
Do explain your claim, Belz.

Second - If by civil you mean not calling out the obviously flawed arguments of a poster, then no - I will not pull my punches in this matter. If you come up with transparently false/obfuscating posts, I have no problem calling you out on it; nor do I consider this to be improper.
Beyond that - I will NOT recourse to ad personams and other such tactics.
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Old May 21 2013, 04:37 PM   #77
C.E. Evans
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Ok, but why would Picard receive the information necessary to defeat the Cube ? Was it by accident ?
Definitely by accident.
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Old May 21 2013, 04:54 PM   #78
Belz...
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The borg would have to care enough in order to send 15 cubes (BTW, Voy "Scorpion" establishes the borg has millions of cubes).
So now you've moved the goalposts to "don't care enough."

It doesn't do much for the federation's ego, does it?: to find out the federation's archenemy cares about it so little, it can't even be bothered to send a measly 15 cubes to finish it off.
I have no idea what you're on about. I would think the Federation would be very happy to learn that.

First - argument by fiat. Do you see me arguing the existence of god? Or breaking Occam's razor in my arguments?
No, but your claim that they don't care is unsupported.

Second - If by civil you mean not calling out the obviously flawed arguments of a poster, then no - I will not pull my punches in this matter. If you come up with transparently false/obfuscating posts, I have no problem calling you out on it; nor do I consider this to be improper.
No, I mean what you just posted here. You don't need to be rude. We are discussing a fictional show.
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Old May 21 2013, 08:13 PM   #79
Timo
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Really, Timo?
Really, whoever.

So - either this group of drones were super geniuses (nothing showed or implied they were) or the collective at large already had transwarp (as it's established in Voy).
"Descent" does nothing to support the latter idea. So it's fallacy for you to use "Descent" to establish anything about the Collective's transwarp capabilities.

It's a separate matter, examined later on in case you missed it, that other episodes establish the Collective capacity. But that in turn doesn't establish anything about "Descent".

The borg evolve - technologically - quite rapidly, as long a there's someone more advanced to assimilate.
And what is your evidence for that? The Borg technology seen in "Q Who?" and the Borg technology seen in "Endgame" don't appear to demonstrate noticeable differences - at least when you include the later episodes' retroactive establishing of many "classic" Borg features "Q Who?" was neutral about, such as nanoprobes, in ancient times already.

The only thing that could make it clearer that they were stronger than the federation would have been to be told directly they were stronger than the federation.
They had more advanced tech, were far more successful against far more borg than the federation, etc.
Your first point fails, as we see no technology more advanced than that the UFP possesses or, according to our heroes' expert estimate, could plausibly possess. Your second point fails as success against the Borg is merely an outcome, in no way associated with defensive capabilities in the episode; it cannot be used to counter the idea that the Borg cared just as little about Arturis' species as they do about Picard's, until they decide otherwise for reason X. And your third point... Well, you don't have any "etc".

There are species the borg really want to assimilate and species that don't have this "honor". The federation is among the latter.
As you yourself helped establish, there's nothing so binary about it. It's a spectrum of options, and sending of ships demonstrates interest at varying levels, whereas assimilation is but one of the things the Borg do for a living. Tickling the UFP with Cubes demonstrates interest - but it also demonstrates that the interest is not in rapid assimilation. And that's all we can say about that.

The borg said they'll assimilate their targets in First Contact (while heading straight for earth) and pretty much every time they were encountered afterwards.
And that's indeed the difference (possibly meaningful): the Borg merely identify ships as targets in the other encounters, and the assimilation of a species or a world seems to recede as an option, let alone a priority.

It doesn't prove anything, but it's a semantic point we can use for supporting varying ideas about what is going on. Or then let it drop.

Ok, but why would Picard receive the information necessary to defeat the Cube ? Was it by accident ?
If we're witnessing a "single timeline" drama, similar to Back to the Future, where only one timeline exists and is messed with (despite Doc Brown's rantings), then we must assume the Borg got what they wanted. Otherwise, they would have kept on meddling with their time machine. Thus, the loss of the Cube and later the Queen must have been a favorable or at least acceptable outcome, and in that case was unlikely to have been an accident as such.

If it's a multi-timeline thing, then perhaps the Borg failed here, in a series of accidents that gave Picard the advantage, but succeeded in some other timeline we didn't see. The heroes live happily ever after in this timeline, the Borg do so in the other one.

But "telepathy" doesn't strike me as the only possibility. We know UFP medical technology cannot remove even crude, macroscopic instruments such as the Wire from a brain; it's implausible that Crusher and her team could have fully cleaned up Picard in the aftermath of "Best of Both Worlds", despite their claims. Picard's blood might still be full of undetectable nanoinstrumentation, and it might only occasionally gather up into larger-scale, detectable machines such as subspace hotlines.

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Old May 21 2013, 08:23 PM   #80
ssosmcin
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

"He wants responsibility for this cluster f**k? Let him have it. Anything you say, Picard!"
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Old May 21 2013, 09:07 PM   #81
Belz...
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Timo wrote: View Post
But "telepathy" doesn't strike me as the only possibility. We know UFP medical technology cannot remove even crude, macroscopic instruments such as the Wire from a brain; it's implausible that Crusher and her team could have fully cleaned up Picard in the aftermath of "Best of Both Worlds", despite their claims. Picard's blood might still be full of undetectable nanoinstrumentation, and it might only occasionally gather up into larger-scale, detectable machines such as subspace hotlines.
That brings up a frightening prospect, though: that Picard could wake up one day as Locutus again.

It's unfortunate that the Borg went from "don't care about you" to "assimilate some cultures sometimes" to "always assimilates everyone" to "can't do anything except assimilating" in the span between 1988 and 2001. I thought the Borg were at their most interesting right at the cliffhanger of BOBW Part 1.
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Old May 21 2013, 09:48 PM   #82
Pavonis
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Belz... wrote: View Post
It's unfortunate that the Borg went from "don't care about you" to "assimilate some cultures sometimes" to "always assimilates everyone" to "can't do anything except assimilating" in the span between 1988 and 2001.
That's Flanderization for you.
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Old May 21 2013, 09:56 PM   #83
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

I didn't want to use the term because I didn't know if anybody would get it.
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Old May 21 2013, 10:27 PM   #84
Pavonis
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

That's why I linked it to TV Tropes.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:00 PM   #85
Marcus Porcius Cato
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Timo wrote: View Post
Agreed that the fight from Typhon sector to Earth may well have taken days. But if so, there would probably also have been time for Starfleet to send in reinforcements, and to keep organizing the battle so that the constant losses would not pose a problem in leadership...

Picard would have exploited a brief opportunity rather than an inevitable and permanent collapse of the chain of command, then.

Timo Saloniemi
Since "First Contact" take after "Paradise Lost" could the Fleet HQ lack a lot of admirals after Hayes was killed?

I for one would not summon aggressive admirals in the capital after an attempted coup
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Old May 21 2013, 11:21 PM   #86
C.E. Evans
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
But "telepathy" doesn't strike me as the only possibility. We know UFP medical technology cannot remove even crude, macroscopic instruments such as the Wire from a brain; it's implausible that Crusher and her team could have fully cleaned up Picard in the aftermath of "Best of Both Worlds", despite their claims. Picard's blood might still be full of undetectable nanoinstrumentation, and it might only occasionally gather up into larger-scale, detectable machines such as subspace hotlines.
That brings up a frightening prospect, though: that Picard could wake up one day as Locutus again.
I actually think that's something Starfleet (or rather, Starfleet Medical) investigated thoroughly off-screen. I don't believe Starfleet would let Picard stay in command of the Enterprise (or in Starfleet period) if there was any chance he could revert back to Locutus.

I think any lingering doubts Starfleet may have had with Picard wasn't about whether he could become a Borg again but rather about his ability to remain cool and not become "an unstable element" if he faced them in battle again.
It's unfortunate that the Borg went from "don't care about you" to "assimilate some cultures sometimes" to "always assimilates everyone" to "can't do anything except assimilating" in the span between 1988 and 2001. I thought the Borg were at their most interesting right at the cliffhanger of BOBW Part 1.
It could be that Borg are not monolithic and sometimes their objectives change as circumstances demand. Periodically, the Borg may have to undergo periods of heavy assimilation to increase their numbers quickly sometimes (it may take too long for baby Borg to grow up whenever they need a lot of drones).
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Old May 21 2013, 11:27 PM   #87
Belz...
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I actually think that's something Starfleet (or rather, Starfleet Medical) investigated thoroughly off-screen. I don't believe Starfleet would let Picard stay in command of the Enterprise (or in Starfleet period) if there was any chance he could revert back to Locutus.
Well if they did, though, wouldn't they spot anything left in his system that could account for his lingering contact with the collective ?

I think any lingering doubts Starfleet may have had with Picard wasn't about whether he could become a Borg again but rather about his ability to remain cool and not become "an unstable element" if he faced them in battle again.
I watched the movie yesterday and I realised Starfleet was right. Picard almost sacrifices his crew and the future of humanity because of his vendetta. If not for Lily, he would have.

It could be that Borg are not monolithic and sometimes their objectives change as circumstances demand. Periodically, the Borg may have to undergo periods of heavy assimilation to increase their numbers quickly sometimes (it may take too long for baby Borg to grow up whenever they need a lot of drones).
That could make sense. As it stands, it just seems like lazy writing, and turning the borg into another culture of hats.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:46 PM   #88
C.E. Evans
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Belz... wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I actually think that's something Starfleet (or rather, Starfleet Medical) investigated thoroughly off-screen. I don't believe Starfleet would let Picard stay in command of the Enterprise (or in Starfleet period) if there was any chance he could revert back to Locutus.
Well if they did, though, wouldn't they spot anything left in his system that could account for his lingering contact with the collective ?
I would think so. At least anything physically.
I think any lingering doubts Starfleet may have had with Picard wasn't about whether he could become a Borg again but rather about his ability to remain cool and not become "an unstable element" if he faced them in battle again.
I watched the movie yesterday and I realised Starfleet was right. Picard almost sacrifices his crew and the future of humanity because of his vendetta. If not for Lily, he would have.
Yeah, he did have his "Captain Ahab" moment and wanted to make the Borg pay for what they done, making that his sole focus for awhile.
It could be that Borg are not monolithic and sometimes their objectives change as circumstances demand. Periodically, the Borg may have to undergo periods of heavy assimilation to increase their numbers quickly sometimes (it may take too long for baby Borg to grow up whenever they need a lot of drones).
That could make sense. As it stands, it just seems like lazy writing, and turning the borg into another culture of hats.
There could be truth to that, but it's also somewhat par for the course in Trek to add different layers to various cultures over time. Even the otherwise steadfast Vulcans were revealed to not always have been so nice during ENT. And the Klingons went from sneaky tricksters to an honor-bound warrior society.
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Old May 22 2013, 01:14 PM   #89
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Well if they did, though, wouldn't they spot anything left in his system that could account for his lingering contact with the collective?
I sort of doubt it. At that point, they didn't even appear to know about the Borg nanoprobes (even though an injection made Picard go grey in "BoBW pt I"); they might very well have thought that taking out the macroscopic add-ons would be the end of it.

It's not as if the contact is "lingering" but more like "dormant", only manifesting on certain encounters and not on others. That would jibe well with a subspace transceiver that is built by the nanoprobes as needed and then torn down again.

There could be truth to that, but it's also somewhat par for the course in Trek to add different layers to various cultures over time. Even the otherwise steadfast Vulcans were revealed to not always have been so nice during ENT. And the Klingons went from sneaky tricksters to an honor-bound warrior society.
...Both cases allowing us to argue that nothing really changed. Vulcans were assholes in "Amok Time" and "Journey to Babel", and Klingons played dirty also well beyond TOS. But that would be selling the writers short, as they indeed added complexity to aliens originally created to serve a single dramatic purpose. They just didn't do it at the cost of the original characterizations.

It should also be remembered that Vulcans and Klingons were familiar to our heroes from way back even when first introduced. The Borg were alien. I'm a big fan of what was done to them subsequently - essentially, our heroes' initial assessment was proven categorically wrong, just as it should be. Despite Q's lies, the Borg weren't uninterested in people; they were merely uninterested in our heroes. Take that, Picard! Despite having babies in drawers, they didn't procreate; Q told them as much, but again in the form of a lie, as we later appear to learn that a Borg Drone doesn't exactly cease to be male or female for good, it merely stops manifesting those attributes much. The heroes even got the concept of the Collective all wrong, being unaware of such key nuances as the Queen or the Vinculum. And the thing is, they couldn't have known better, and definitely shouldn't.

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