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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: 'Who' is John Hurt
The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell) 9 9.09%
The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War 57 57.58%
The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor 3 3.03%
Something else entirely 30 30.30%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 21 2013, 05:28 AM   #61
Hartzilla2007
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I kind of doubt its going to have something to do with the Time War on the principal that we already know what he did there for the most part and they make it sound like this new version and what he did is some major secret.

Besides if this was the one from the Time War considering Clara's memories from Journey to the Center of the Tardis were coming back wouldn't she possibly have a vague idea who this Doctor is?
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Old May 21 2013, 05:51 AM   #62
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
What we know about TJHD (The John Hurt Doctor) lines up well with what we know about The Valeyard.

So, yeah. I vote for The Valeyard.
That was my impression as well.
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Old May 21 2013, 10:16 AM   #63
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
What we know about TJHD (The John Hurt Doctor) lines up well with what we know about The Valeyard.
We know, both by the numbers game and what the GI says in the ep, that the Doctor hasn't become the Valeyard yet. But the particularly strong anger that the Doctor seems to harbor towards this version of himself and what he did makes me believe that whatever he did, Matt Smith's Doctor already went through it and remembers being "him." Not explicitly stated on screen, no, but just my gut instinct; the Valeyard reference was one tip of the hat in an ep filled with them and Hurt's Doctor is something else entirely.
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Old May 21 2013, 01:06 PM   #64
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Brent wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The Great Intelligence made a big noise about the final atrocities that the Doctor committed before his death. Deaths of Billions. In my mind there is no way that the John Hurt Doctor is from the past.
But then the doctor wouldn't know who he is or what he's done, and apparently the Doctor has been carrying this burden for a very long time, but if its a future incarnation, he wouldn't know yet, so that doesn't make sense that Hurt is a future incarnation.
I rewatched the episode last evening. I was initially dismissive of the idea that John Hurt could be a future Doctor; the dialogue at the end clearly indicates that the eleventh Doctor knows what Hurt did, which indicates the past.

While I'm still sure of that (for other reasons, which I'll address), the episode does offer another possibility.

Think about what the Doctor did immediately prior to saving Clara from the fog and meeting John Hurt.

He jumped into his own timestream. And we know from dialogue earlier in the episode that the Doctor's timestream extends to some point in his own personal future. While Clara didn't see the future Doctors (per dialogue), there's nothing that indicates the Doctor also didn't. The Doctor could have seen his own future, his incarnations yet to come, and what those incarnations did. Therefore, he could have known what horrible things the Hurt Doctor did, even though, from his perspective, it hadn't yet been done, and thus he passed judgment on his future Hurt incarnation and his actions, dubbing him unfit of the name "Doctor."

All of that said, the dialogue between Clara and the Doctor contradicts much of that speculation, as they talk about Hurt in terms that indicate that he was in the past times where Clara went. Plus, Hurt is a secret the Doctor keeps; that doesn't make sense if the Doctor had just discovered that his future self is a horrible creature. These all point to Hurt as a past Doctor.
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Old May 21 2013, 01:50 PM   #65
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
We know, both by the numbers game and what the GI says in the ep, that the Doctor hasn't become the Valeyard yet. But the particularly strong anger that the Doctor seems to harbor towards this version of himself and what he did makes me believe that whatever he did, Matt Smith's Doctor already went through it and remembers being "him."
But the Doctor has met the Valeyard. His sixth incarnation was put on trial by the Valeyard and spent a whole season at odds with him (although, granted, in story time it was only a day or two). He learned long ago what the Valeyard was and he's had lifetimes to let that knowledge simmer in him and make him angry and bitter about that aspect of himself. Heck, in the Virgin New Adventures novels, the Seventh Doctor's fear of eventually becoming the Valeyard was a major recurring character thread.
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Old May 21 2013, 02:57 PM   #66
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
What we know about TJHD (The John Hurt Doctor) lines up well with what we know about The Valeyard.
We know, both by the numbers game and what the GI says in the ep, that the Doctor hasn't become the Valeyard yet. But the particularly strong anger that the Doctor seems to harbor towards this version of himself and what he did makes me believe that whatever he did, Matt Smith's Doctor already went through it and remembers being "him." Not explicitly stated on screen, no, but just my gut instinct; the Valeyard reference was one tip of the hat in an ep filled with them and Hurt's Doctor is something else entirely.
I could be strongly in this camp, but, the problem is, what we know the Valleyard did was not for Peace or Compassion or whatever, it was pure and simple greed, he wanted to take the 6th Doctor's remaining Generations, so, based upon that, there is a huge hole in this theory.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:09 PM   #67
Chrono85
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

If Clara only met the first 11 incarnations of The Doctor, and The Doctor tells Clara that she only did not meet John Hurt's Doctor, because he wasn't worthy of the name 'Doctor' then this implies that he must be a past Doctor. There is also the fact that the 11th (or 12th?) Doctor clearly knows who the guy is. I don't think that he's the real 1st Doctor either, because that would be prior to stealing the TARDIS and embarking on his time traveling adventures, so if he really was the first incarnation, then he probably would not have the nickname 'Doctor' yet. I always assumed he adopted that name as an alias during his adventures, so certain folks couldn't find him; at least in the beginning.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:19 PM   #68
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

^I always figured that the Doctor was called that because he got a doctorate from the Prydonian Academy. So he would've been called that well before he left.

And didn't the Gallifreyan version of Clara address him as "Doctor" when she warned him not to steal the wrong TARDIS? That would prove that he did already have the title before he left.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:20 PM   #69
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Chrono85 wrote: View Post
I always assumed he adopted that name as an alias during his adventures, so certain folks couldn't find him; at least in the beginning.
Doesn't hold up. Clara refers to the First Doctor as "Doctor" just before he leaves Gallifrey for the first time and gets his attention.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:37 PM   #70
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Maybe that is exactly the moment he starts using it.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:46 PM   #71
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

You gotta' point, there. I was going to counter that he didn't actually start calling himself the Doctor until he encountered Ian and Barbara from the Coal Hill School. But then I remembered Ian addressed him as "Dr. Foreman", assuming he was the owner of the Totters Lane scrapyard. Hartnell's character mutters, "Dr. Who? What's he babbling about?!" You'd think Ian would have called him "Mister Foreman" if he assumed the old man was just a junk dealer. But he called him "Doctor Foreman". So the Doctor had to identify himself by that title a few moments earlier.

Can anybody recall the exact exchange? I'm at work so I obviously do not have my DVD of "An Unearthly CHild" available.

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Old May 21 2013, 03:48 PM   #72
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Brent wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The Great Intelligence made a big noise about the final atrocities that the Doctor committed before his death. Deaths of Billions. In my mind there is no way that the John Hurt Doctor is from the past.
But then the doctor wouldn't know who he is or what he's done, and apparently the Doctor has been carrying this burden for a very long time, but if its a future incarnation, he wouldn't know yet, so that doesn't make sense that Hurt is a future incarnation.
I rewatched the episode last evening. I was initially dismissive of the idea that John Hurt could be a future Doctor; the dialogue at the end clearly indicates that the eleventh Doctor knows what Hurt did, which indicates the past.

While I'm still sure of that (for other reasons, which I'll address), the episode does offer another possibility.

Think about what the Doctor did immediately prior to saving Clara from the fog and meeting John Hurt.

He jumped into his own timestream. And we know from dialogue earlier in the episode that the Doctor's timestream extends to some point in his own personal future. While Clara didn't see the future Doctors (per dialogue), there's nothing that indicates the Doctor also didn't. The Doctor could have seen his own future, his incarnations yet to come, and what those incarnations did. Therefore, he could have known what horrible things the Hurt Doctor did, even though, from his perspective, it hadn't yet been done, and thus he passed judgment on his future Hurt incarnation and his actions, dubbing him unfit of the name "Doctor."

All of that said, the dialogue between Clara and the Doctor contradicts much of that speculation, as they talk about Hurt in terms that indicate that he was in the past times where Clara went. Plus, Hurt is a secret the Doctor keeps; that doesn't make sense if the Doctor had just discovered that his future self is a horrible creature. These all point to Hurt as a past Doctor.
But he knew the secret, and feels the burden of this other Doctor prior to going into the time stream. He's been carrying it with him a long time now, that much is known.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:50 PM   #73
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Brent wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The Great Intelligence made a big noise about the final atrocities that the Doctor committed before his death. Deaths of Billions. In my mind there is no way that the John Hurt Doctor is from the past.
But then the doctor wouldn't know who he is or what he's done, and apparently the Doctor has been carrying this burden for a very long time, but if its a future incarnation, he wouldn't know yet, so that doesn't make sense that Hurt is a future incarnation.
I rewatched the episode last evening. I was initially dismissive of the idea that John Hurt could be a future Doctor; the dialogue at the end clearly indicates that the eleventh Doctor knows what Hurt did, which indicates the past.

While I'm still sure of that (for other reasons, which I'll address), the episode does offer another possibility.

Think about what the Doctor did immediately prior to saving Clara from the fog and meeting John Hurt.

He jumped into his own timestream. And we know from dialogue earlier in the episode that the Doctor's timestream extends to some point in his own personal future. While Clara didn't see the future Doctors (per dialogue), there's nothing that indicates the Doctor also didn't. The Doctor could have seen his own future, his incarnations yet to come, and what those incarnations did. Therefore, he could have known what horrible things the Hurt Doctor did, even though, from his perspective, it hadn't yet been done, and thus he passed judgment on his future Hurt incarnation and his actions, dubbing him unfit of the name "Doctor."

All of that said, the dialogue between Clara and the Doctor contradicts much of that speculation, as they talk about Hurt in terms that indicate that he was in the past times where Clara went. Plus, Hurt is a secret the Doctor keeps; that doesn't make sense if the Doctor had just discovered that his future self is a horrible creature. These all point to Hurt as a past Doctor.
It also doesn't work if you try to set up over an arc that the Doctor has a secret that he doesn't want anyone to discover and then have that secret be something he discovers for himself in the final episode!
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Old May 21 2013, 04:09 PM   #74
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Maybe that's because he is the Doctor and knows full well, tht any secret he holds at any time, past or future, must be a very important truth that must be kept secret no matter what... until it is discovered anyway.
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Old May 21 2013, 04:23 PM   #75
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Redfern wrote: View Post
You gotta' point, there. I was going to counter that he didn't actually start calling himself the Doctor until he encountered Ian and Barbara from the Coal Hill School. But then I remembered Ian addressed him as "Dr. Foreman", assuming he was the owner of the Totters Lane scrapyard. Hartnell's character mutters, "Dr. Who? What's he babbling about?!" You'd think Ian would have called him "Mister Foreman" if he assumed the old man was just a junk dealer. But he called him "Doctor Foreman". So the Doctor had to identify himself by that title a few moments earlier.

Can anybody recall the exact exchange?
http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/1-1.htm

In the opening scene, as Ian and Barbara are discussing their strange student Susan Foreman:

BARBARA: Well, I told you how good she is at history. I had a talk with her and told her she ought to specialise. Well, she seemed quite interested until I said I'd be willing to work with her at her home. Then she said that would be absolutely impossible as her grandfather didn't like strangers.
IAN: He's a doctor, isn't he? That's a bit of a lame excuse.
BARBARA: Well, I didn't pursue the point but then recently her homework's been so bad.
IAN: Yes, I know.
BARBARA: Finally I got so irritated with all her excuses I decided to have a talk with this grandfather of hers and tell him to take some interest in her.
IAN: Did you indeed? And what's the old boy like?
BARBARA: Well, that's just it. I got her address from the secretary, 76 Totters Lane, and I went along there one evening. Oh Ian, do pay attention.
IAN: Sorry. You went along there one evening?
BARBARA: There isn't anything there. It's just an old junkyard.
Remember, Susan was enrolled in their school as a student named Susan Foreman. She'd forged her school records, listing her home address as the junkyard where the TARDIS was parked and borrowing the name "Foreman" from the name on the junkyard's gates. She'd presumably listed her legal guardian in the school records as her grandfather Doctor Foreman (I wonder what first name she used for him), and had evidently mentioned to Ian at some point that her grandfather was a doctor.
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