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Old May 21 2013, 01:02 AM   #76
Silvercrest
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Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

It's still magic tech as far as realism is concerned. The OP wants realism, so I want to see where he draws the line.
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Old May 21 2013, 01:10 AM   #77
Third Nacelle
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Who are we to decide what is and is not realistic technology in the 23rd century?

Did anyone in the 1700s predict an iPhone? Television? Internet? DVD? Space shuttle? Hubble telescope? Automobile? Electron microscope? Electric can opener?
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Old May 21 2013, 01:14 AM   #78
Silvercrest
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

The OP.

Although to be accurate, he envisioned thousands of years in the future, not the 23rd century.
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Old May 21 2013, 02:08 AM   #79
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

This thread reminds me of something I wrote on another bboard back in 2009:

I think they designed new GALACTICA by taking every facet of STAR TREK TOS and simply reversing it. And it works. Look at the list I've compiled:

Virtuous heroes vs Deeply flawed, complicated characters.

The harmony of Roddenberry's "evolved" man vs Ship's regulars who often hate each other.

Liberal morality plays vs Greek tragedies.

Dramatic dialogue delivery vs Low-key naturalism.

Episodic vs Serial.

Bright lighting with high color vs A more dim and grim look.

No religion (except alien computer allegories) vs Main characters with religions.

Time spent at warp vs Instant FTL jump.

Phasers vs Firearms with bullets.

Transporter, deflectors, tractor beams vs None of the above.

Talking computers vs Keyboard and monitor.

Sliding doors whoosh vs Hinged metal doors creak and clank.

Aliens galore vs Humans (and their creations) only.

Communicator and intercom vs Helmet mic and telephone.

Dreamed-up civilian costumes vs Store-bought clothes and suits.

It's like they made a list of every artistic decision, and nearly every sci-fi decision, that TOS exhibited and simply reversed it. Just that simple: here is what we will not do. Many of the TOS items were necessitated by budget and FX limitations, like the transporter and Spock's hooded viewer. But it goes beyond that and the finished BG product turned out completely valid and even exciting.

BG is the Anti-Trek.
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Old May 21 2013, 02:30 AM   #80
Silvercrest
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

The "evolved" thing wasn't around in TOS; that was invented for TNG.

"Instant FTL jump" isn't a reversal of "time spent at warp"; it's just a different way of doing it. Same with "firearms with bullets"; that's not a reversal of having phasers. These things would only be true if they were the only alternatives.

And "none of the above" isn't a reversal of anything.

Thematically, you're probably correct. But the artistic decisions, props, and designs
are just the result of a very different approach, not a conscious reversal.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:31 AM   #81
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
The "evolved" thing wasn't around in TOS; that was invented for TNG.

"Instant FTL jump" isn't a reversal of "time spent at warp"; it's just a different way of doing it. Same with "firearms with bullets"; that's not a reversal of having phasers. These things would only be true if they were the only alternatives.

And "none of the above" isn't a reversal of anything.

Thematically, you're probably correct. But the artistic decisions, props, and designs
are just the result of a very different approach, not a conscious reversal.
We see it differently, then. BG taking "a very different approach" all the way down a checklist was the point I was trying to make, and I think they did literally that, checklist and all.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:32 AM   #82
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Artificial gravity is necessary for the show's budget. They simply don't have money (or even time) to hook all the actors up to harnesses so they float everywhere all the time. It's why BSG never once considered not having artificial gravity.
We will also need artificial gravity in real life as well when we send ships into deep space as a species; humans won't be able to survive without it reinforcing our skeletal structure. So somebody will have to figure it out somehow (perhaps rotating sections, as has been already figured out by many scientists and designers.)
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Old May 21 2013, 08:40 AM   #83
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Artificial gravity is necessary for the show's budget. They simply don't have money (or even time) to hook all the actors up to harnesses so they float everywhere all the time. It's why BSG never once considered not having artificial gravity.
We will also need artificial gravity in real life as well when we send ships into deep space as a species; humans won't be able to survive without it reinforcing our skeletal structure. So somebody will have to figure it out somehow (perhaps rotating sections, as has been already figured out by many scientists and designers.)
Actually, humans will probably live just fine without gravity - only they will not be able to function in gravity fields.

And, as you mentioned, we can already do artificial gravity via centrifugal force.
"Artificial gravity" for such purposes is pretty much a non-problem.
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Old May 21 2013, 08:49 AM   #84
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Actually, humans will probably live just fine without gravity - only they will not be able to function in gravity fields.
That's unproven, especially when it comes to reproduction, childhood development, and old age. Besides, humans living in space will need to endure acceleration, such as when rockets are firing. Being in good health, by terrestrial standards, might well end up being essential.

And, as you mentioned, we can already do artificial gravity via centrifugal force.
"Artificial gravity" for such purposes is pretty much a non-problem.
In engineering, there's no such thing as a non-problem.
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Old May 21 2013, 09:15 AM   #85
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Actually, humans will probably live just fine without gravity - only they will not be able to function in gravity fields.
That's unproven, especially when it comes to reproduction, childhood development, and old age. Besides, humans living in space will need to endure acceleration, such as when rockets are firing. Being in good health, by terrestrial standards, might well end up being essential.
Unproven, but highly likely.
As for enduring temporary acceleration - 0 G grown humans should be able to withstand it, much as we can endure a few Gs worth of acceleration.

All of these being problems if humans do not use centrifugal force for creating gravity AKA if they are stupid enough to deliberately make these problems

And, as you mentioned, we can already do artificial gravity via centrifugal force.
"Artificial gravity" for such purposes is pretty much a non-problem.
In engineering, there's no such thing as a non-problem.
Sure it is - they are also called already solved problems.
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Old May 21 2013, 09:23 AM   #86
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Actually, humans will probably live just fine without gravity - only they will not be able to function in gravity fields.
That's unproven, especially when it comes to reproduction, childhood development, and old age. Besides, humans living in space will need to endure acceleration, such as when rockets are firing. Being in good health, by terrestrial standards, might well end up being essential.
Unproven, but highly likely.
As for enduring temporary acceleration - 0 G grown humans should be able to withstand it, much as we can endure a few Gs worth of acceleration.
Link?


All of these being problems if humans do not use centrifugal force for creating gravity AKA if they are stupid enough to deliberately make these problems

And, as you mentioned, we can already do artificial gravity via centrifugal force.
"Artificial gravity" for such purposes is pretty much a non-problem.
In engineering, there's no such thing as a non-problem.
Sure it is - they are also called already solved problems.
The problem of how to build bridges has been solved, yet they still fall down. Wear and tear always creates problems.

Spacecraft with rotating sections will entail their own sets of problems, such as how to avoid catastrophic destruction of the spacecraft, if a section should get hit by space debris.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:22 AM   #87
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

I read once that it was impossible to design the International Space Station as a 2001-style donut wheel because, in real life, there are no construction materials strong enough to withstand the stresses it would entail.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:26 AM   #88
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That's unproven, especially when it comes to reproduction, childhood development, and old age. Besides, humans living in space will need to endure acceleration, such as when rockets are firing. Being in good health, by terrestrial standards, might well end up being essential.
Unproven, but highly likely.
As for enduring temporary acceleration - 0 G grown humans should be able to withstand it, much as we can endure a few Gs worth of acceleration.
Link?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeri_Polyakov
Plus all other humans who stayed in space for prolonged periods.


All of these being problems if humans do not use centrifugal force for creating gravity AKA if they are stupid enough to deliberately make these problems

In engineering, there's no such thing as a non-problem.
Sure it is - they are also called already solved problems.
The problem of how to build bridges has been solved, yet they still fall down. Wear and tear always creates problems.

Spacecraft with rotating sections will entail their own sets of problems, such as how to avoid catastrophic destruction of the spacecraft, if a section should get hit by space debris.
You are moving the goalposts:
I said creating artificial gravity via centrifugal force is a solved problem.
NOT that making this technology (or any technology) infallible is a solved problem.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; May 21 2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:31 AM   #89
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I read once that it was impossible to design the International Space Station as a 2001-style donut wheel because, in real life, there are no construction materials strong enough to withstand the stresses it would entail.
We are not talking about ringworlds or orbitals.
O'Neill colonies are feasible with materials known 30 years ago - and they are far larger than mere ships.
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Old May 21 2013, 11:45 AM   #90
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Would you like a bsg style reboot of Star trek?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

Unproven, but highly likely.
As for enduring temporary acceleration - 0 G grown humans should be able to withstand it, much as we can endure a few Gs worth of acceleration.
Link?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeri_Polyakov
Plus all other humans who stayed in space for prolonged periods.
Sorry, I see nothing there that supports what you're saying or contradicts what I said. In fact, I'll see you and raise you. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight...health_effects:

The most significant adverse effects of long-term weightlessness are muscle atrophy and deterioration of the skeleton, or spaceflight osteopenia.[12] These effects can be minimized through a regimen of exercise. Astronauts subject to long periods of weightlessness wear pants with elastic bands attached between waistband and cuffs to compress the leg bones and reduce osteopenia.[14] Other significant effects include fluid redistribution (causing the "moon-face" appearance typical of pictures of astronauts in weightlessness),[14][15] a slowing of the cardiovascular system, decreased production of red blood cells, balance disorders, and a weakening of the immune system. Lesser symptoms include loss of body mass, nasal congestion, sleep disturbance, excess flatulence, and puffiness of the face. These effects begin to reverse quickly upon return to the Earth.
Spaceflight osteopenia is a serious problem, and it places a significant burden of proof on anyone asserting that people conceived, developed, born, and raised in space will be able to withstand acceleration, especially that of one or more gees.

We won't really know until people are conceived, developed, and born in weightless environments, but science fiction authors such as Niven, and others, write that such people can never return to Earth.


All of these being problems if humans do not use centrifugal force for creating gravity AKA if they are stupid enough to deliberately make these problems

Sure it is - they are also called already solved problems.
The problem of how to build bridges has been solved, yet they still fall down. Wear and tear always creates problems.

Spacecraft with rotating sections will entail their own sets of problems, such as how to avoid catastrophic destruction of the spacecraft, if a section should get hit by space debris.
You are moving the goalposts:
I said creating artificial gravity via centrifugal force is a solved problem.
NOT that making this technology (or any technology) infallible is a solved problem.
I moved no goalposts. I simply pointed out that there is a gulf between solving a problem on paper and solving one in practice. The problem is not completely solved until it is solved in practice.

As yet, we have no space stations or spacecraft with centrifugal gravity.

Until such time as those things exist, we cannot boast that it is an already solved problem. You can't speak of things that have never existed in the past tense.
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