RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,560
Posts: 5,513,966
Members: 25,146
Currently online: 572
Newest member: TM2-Megatron

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 19 2013, 10:38 PM   #46
Relayer1
Rear Admiral
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DS9forever wrote: View Post
Did anybody notice the similarities of the film with the DS9 novel Abyss?. In Abyss, Section 31 recruit Locken (who is genetically engineered) but he turns against them.
There were similarities with the novel Dreadnought as well, but all coincidental I'm sure...
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19 2013, 10:48 PM   #47
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

At this point, so many different Star Trek stories have been told that just about any story is likely to bear some similarity to a previous Trek story.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 02:01 AM   #48
Jolaris
Commander
 
Location: Umea, Vasterbotten, Sweden
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

This talk about it being a novelty to use transwarp transporters, isn't there already an in-universe precedent set for that in the Prime universe with Iconian Gateways?
__________________
What does God need with a starship?

To get to the other side of course!
Jolaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 02:10 AM   #49
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

^The issue isn't whether the technology exists at all, it's whether the Federation has it in a usable form.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 03:05 AM   #50
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

He was given a false identity, and as a major historical figure he had a recognizable face. It stands to reason his Caucasian appearance is the result of cosmetic surgery.
Since he's from India (and played by a Spanish-Mexican) didn't Khan always have a Caucasian appearance?
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 03:18 AM   #51
tomswift2002
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
Chris McCarver wrote: View Post
... whereas in previous productions they only used the handhelds when off-ship....
Usually, but as I already said, not exclusively. "The Cage" is one exception. I can't think of other examples offhand, but I'm pretty sure it's not unheard of. (I'm not counting "Mirror, Mirror," since the characters were using their communicators for privacy rather than use the mirror ship's intercoms.)
How about the TMP "Dick Tracy" communicators. There was that one scene where Uhura and Chekov are on Kirk's wall screen, but I seem to remember Kirk and Decker using their communicators to talk to the bridge and other officers.

But I also found that the movie really drew heavily on Diane Carey's "Dreadnought!" Novel.

Plus with Admiral Marcus, because he was played by the same actor who played the Terra Prime leader, I wonder if the two characters are related (imagine, David Marcus' great-great-grandfather was the leader of Terra Prime).
tomswift2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 10:20 AM   #52
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DS9forever wrote: View Post
Did anybody notice the similarities of the film with the DS9 novel Abyss?. In Abyss, Section 31 recruit Locken (who is genetically engineered) but he turns against them.
I definitely got that vibe as well. I wonder if one or more of the writers have read the novel?
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 10:26 AM   #53
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
He was given a false identity, and as a major historical figure he had a recognizable face. It stands to reason his Caucasian appearance is the result of cosmetic surgery.
Since he's from India (and played by a Spanish-Mexican) didn't Khan always have a Caucasian appearance?
Cute, but I still would have preferred a person of color or at least a person with darker skin. I thought Cumberbatch did solid in the acting department, but he wasn't Khan to me, in appearance or attitude.

All that being said, this debate about Khan is just one example of how I feel Into Darkness falls short as a film. It's relies too much on fans to fill in the blanks. Granted it's something many of us love to do, but it's a sign that the film has problems standing on its own without that assist.

There are debates raging about Khan's blood or why they couldn't use another person in one of the canisters to save Kirk, why was Admiral Marcus so open about Section 31, was it or was it not Praxis, Carol Marcus's British accent, etc. I wish some of this stuff had been explained or explained more thoroughly in the film and not left up for people to speculate. Believe me even if it had been explained I'm sure we would've come up with something to nitpick. But the things I listed above I don't think are nitpicks, I think they are things that distract from the film and the story they are trying to tell. And many of them could've been solved with a bit of dialogue.
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 10:46 AM   #54
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
I still would have preferred a person of color or at least a person with darker skin.
Right on the tail of the Boston Marathon bombing? Nah, that would have been box office suicide.

There are debates raging about Khan's blood or why they couldn't use another person in one of the canisters to save Kirk, why was Admiral Marcus so open about Section 31, was it or was it not Praxis, Carol Marcus's British accent, etc. I wish some of this stuff had been explained or explained more thoroughly in the film and not left up for people to speculate
You wanna take away fannish speculation?

That's our whole reason for going to "Star Trek" movies!
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 11:41 AM   #55
Relayer1
Rear Admiral
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post

There are debates raging about Khan's blood or why they couldn't use another person in one of the canisters to save Kirk, why was Admiral Marcus so open about Section 31, was it or was it not Praxis, Carol Marcus's British accent, etc. I wish some of this stuff had been explained or explained more thoroughly in the film and not left up for people to speculate. Believe me even if it had been explained I'm sure we would've come up with something to nitpick. But the things I listed above I don't think are nitpicks, I think they are things that distract from the film and the story they are trying to tell. And many of them could've been solved with a bit of dialogue.
True, but JJ's stuff all seems to be like that - the first film at first seemed full of plot holes to me but with the exception of a couple of very large coincidences, it does hang together with a bit of thought.

As long as it doesn't ruin the flow of the movie, I just don't think that it matters to the vast majority of the cinema going public...
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:34 PM   #56
Dave Scarpa
Lieutenant Commander
 
Dave Scarpa's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

King Daniel wrote: View Post
MASSIVE SPOILERS, m'kay? Watch the movie first. Alrighty then...

Some random thoughts about the new movie and how it may or may not affect the novelverse. Feel free to add your own. Should the novels be influenced by the new movie? Or would you prefer it be ignored althogether?


-Transwarp beaming (a technology from the primeverse's 2387) can teleport a person from Earth all the way to Kronos and possibly further, although as we saw in the last movie, not without risk. This has the potential to hugely affect the novelverse. At the very least, it means Scotty could rematerialize just about anywhere after beaming off the exploding USS Challenger in Indistinguishable From Magic. If it's ignored it would be a shame, IMO.

-23rd century Earth! I'd buy a book that has Spock stuck in ground traffic on his way to a lecture at Starfleet Academy. It's not actually much different to the 23rd century Earth described in Star Trek Academy: Collision Course. More future-Earth based Treks, please!

-We saw more of Kronos, although it appeared to be undergoing a post-Praxis apocalypse. They certainly build big in Martok's hometown! And we saw a few D-4 Birds of Prey.

-In the film, communication throughout Federation space was instantaneous. Kirk phones Scotty (in a club in San Francisco) from the Klingon border. Since the novelverse is still going with the idea that space is vast and messages can take awhile to get from A to B, I expect this to be ignored.

-Ditto the speed-of-plot travel around the galaxy. The novelverse has Vesta-class ships for that!

-Section 31 seems to have taken on a far greater role following the Narada's arrival. They had a giant weapons R&D facility under the Kelvin memorial archive in London and along with Starfleet built a kilometer-and-a-half long deathship in orbit of Jupiter. Most likely totally irrelevant to the novelverse, unless Alex Marcus and the lower-key S31-prime crop up in a 23rd century novel.

-It's worth pointing out that according to DC comics' "The Star Crossed" Carol Marcus served in Starfleet for a few years.

-The movie seems to confirm a branching timeline in 2233. Care was taken to keep Khan's backstory consistent with canon (ethnicity aside, which was already wonky after Wrath of Khan), and there were models of the Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX-Alpha and Enterprise NX-01 on a desk in Admiral Marcus' office.

-Spock's mention that Khan's goals included "the extermination of all those not considered superior" (or words to that effect) sounded like a reference to Khan's plan to use the modified strep-A to exterminate all regular humans in Greg Cox's The Eugenics Wars, Volume Two.


Anything else that may be of relevance to the novels?
The Novels should ignore the whole thing. That's what I'm doing
Dave Scarpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 02:06 PM   #57
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
There are debates raging about Khan's blood or why they couldn't use another person in one of the canisters to save Kirk...
Roberto Orci's explanation over on TrekMovie is the same one I pretty much intuited: that McCoy only knew for sure that Khan's blood had the regenerative power, and had no basis to assume that the others' would as well. I mean, since they are genetically engineered, it's possible that they could have various different genetic enhancements rather than all being the same. McCoy would've been a pretty inept scientist to speculate beyond the evidence like that.


why was Admiral Marcus so open about Section 31...
He intended to sacrifice Kirk to the Klingons to start a war, so he probably didn't expect Kirk to survive to pass on the information anyway.


was it or was it not Praxis
Easy enough to surmise that the Klingons accelerated their fleet building and energy production in response to the Narada's attack (one or both), leading Praxis to blow up sooner.


Carol Marcus's British accent, etc.
The easiest of all to explain: She was just raised in England in this timeline. Orci has confirmed that as well (specifically, she was raised in London).


I wish some of this stuff had been explained or explained more thoroughly in the film and not left up for people to speculate.
But to new viewers, these details wouldn't have meant anything. New or casual viewers wouldn't have had any reason to be puzzled about Section 31 not being more secret or a Klingon moon being shattered in 2259. It would've been a distraction from the story to stop and say "Hey, Trek fans, here's why this is different from what it was before."

Sure, a daughter having a different accent from her father could seem like something in need of an explanation, but it's pretty easy to deduce just from what we know: the father worked with a secret branch of his organization that had a facility in London, so that probably means he spent much of his career there and raised his daughter there. Children having different accents from their parents because of where they were raised is a common enough phenomenon in real life that it doesn't really require dialogue to explain. (In fact, they actually filmed a scene where Carol explained she was raised in London, but cut it because it was nonessential and got in the way of the pacing.)


But the things I listed above I don't think are nitpicks, I think they are things that distract from the film and the story they are trying to tell. And many of them could've been solved with a bit of dialogue.
Ohh, they're definitely nitpicks. Heck, even I almost missed the glimpse of Praxis, since it was so insignificant to the story, just a bit of space scenery. The only one of the above questions that's more than a trivial detail is the one about Khan's blood. That could've used another line to make it clearer.



Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
DarKush wrote: View Post
I still would have preferred a person of color or at least a person with darker skin.
Right on the tail of the Boston Marathon bombing? Nah, that would have been box office suicide.
Huh? First off, they didn't know that bombing would happen when they cast the role last year. And second, the suspected bombers were of Chechen and Avar parentage -- Caucasians in the most literal geographical sense, from the region of the Caucasus Mountains. They're as light-skinned as you or I am. Also they're Muslims, and though some people mistakenly think that Sikhism is an offshoot of Islam, it's actually a distinct faith.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 03:56 PM   #58
iarann
Lieutenant
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

[QUOTE=Christopher;8111410]
datalogan wrote: View Post
For instance, the Botany Bay was found over 5 years earlier in this timeline than in the Prime one.
Over 8 years, in fact. "Space Seed" was in 2267, and this film mostly takes place in early 2259 judging from the stardate. And Khan was definitely found some months before that.
Was a time specified for how much earlier Khan was woken up before the film? Based on the dialogue we got regarding how he worked with Section 31 to develop weapons and such, I had this weird assumption they found him years before the movie. Did I mishear the background explanation and think he meant the Kelvin's destruction and it was actually Vulcan's?
__________________
Benjamin Handelman
iarann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:34 PM   #59
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

^Honestly I'm not sure. I'd have to see the movie again.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:36 PM   #60
Corran Horn
Vice Admiral
 
Corran Horn's Avatar
 
Location: I-L
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

[QUOTE=iarann;8122984]
Christopher wrote: View Post
datalogan wrote: View Post


Over 8 years, in fact. "Space Seed" was in 2267, and this film mostly takes place in early 2259 judging from the stardate. And Khan was definitely found some months before that.
Was a time specified for how much earlier Khan was woken up before the film? Based on the dialogue we got regarding how he worked with Section 31 to develop weapons and such, I had this weird assumption they found him years before the movie. Did I mishear the background explanation and think he meant the Kelvin's destruction and it was actually Vulcan's?
I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think he said that, due to the destruction of Vulcan, Starfleet was stepping up their exploratory efforts (presumably to find a "New Vulcan") and that's when they found the Botany Bay.
__________________
"I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. I play video games, which I think is a far superior addiction to any of those other ones. "
Corran Horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.