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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 8 2013, 03:44 AM   #46
AggieJohn
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

I always saw it as some of the differences were because of budget, but at the same time I could also see the Enterprise going through some major upgrades over its years of service. One could even theorize that the Enterprise even went through additional refits prior to TMP. This is not uncommon in navies now, and I think that the articles linked above do a great job of demonstrating how US Navy ships have undergone dramatic changes.

Why would Starfleet do that? Well I have to think that despite the technological advances of the next 300 years, there still a bit superstitious about ships and the Enterprise has been a beacon of success for Starfleet. Why decommission a good thing? Its a luck ship that always seems to come out of incidents ok. Not like many of her sister ships which are destroyed throughout the TOS.
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Old May 10 2013, 08:30 PM   #47
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

I like to think that the "refit" was always essentially intended by Starfleet to be a new ship, and basically replaced everything of the old. But they wanted to portray it as a refit, rather than scrap the old one and build a new, for marketing and PR purposes. The Enterprise had become legendary and had completed an historic mission. They didn't want to just scrap her.
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Old May 19 2013, 03:12 PM   #48
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

I interpret it as a retcon. In-story, it's clear that the ship was changed, but if you look at the physical models, they are completely different in proportions and design, even though the basic configuration is the same. I don't think it's possible to really reconcile the two, so I just go for retcon.
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Old May 19 2013, 04:33 PM   #49
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

One way to easily reconcile it was already mentioned earlier in this thread--an idea that the Enterprise's refit started off originally as just an engine upgrade and that it ballooned into a total redesign of the vessel.
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Old May 19 2013, 04:44 PM   #50
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

An intriguing missing link exists in 'Star Trek: Phase II'. Now, while TMP's sets and overall design were originated in Phase II, I can't help wondering if the Phase II refit wouldn't have come across as a bit less of a visual leap than what we got in TMP. We already know from the test footage that the existing TMP sets were orginally painted in a more TOS-like color scheme, and the actors (in those screentests at least) wore variations of TOS uniforms. The Phase II writer's guide even goes as far as to suggest that the new Enterprise will look a little different, but still be cosmetically the same ship as the one in TOS.

My theory is that when Bob Wise came aboard he shook things up a bit (revamp the sets, bring in new uniforms). In so doing, the narrative device of it simply being a 'refit' kind of went out the window, because as characters in the movie itself note it was effectively a whole new Enterprise... they'd probably have been better off just running with the idea that the TOS ship was decomissioned after Kirk's 5 year mission and replaced with a brand new model. The differences between the old Enterprise and the movie model are too extensive for it to be anything other than a ground-up build IMO.
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Old May 19 2013, 05:12 PM   #51
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
One way to easily reconcile it was already mentioned earlier in this thread--an idea that the Enterprise's refit started off originally as just an engine upgrade and that it ballooned into a total redesign of the vessel.
This one's been around for years, but it's an impossible upgrade if you look at both designs one over the other. There's just no way unless they dismantle 1701 completely. There's no reason to absolutely want it not to be a retcon, just like those people on TNG holding their tricorders upside down doesn't mean it was a different model.

Lance wrote: View Post
An intriguing missing link exists in 'Star Trek: Phase II'. Now, while TMP's sets and overall design were originated in Phase II, I can't help wondering if the Phase II refit wouldn't have come across as a bit less of a visual leap than what we got in TMP.
Oh, absolutely. There are a few pictures of the plans and the model and aside from the struts and nacelles, it was very similar to the old model.
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Old May 19 2013, 05:41 PM   #52
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Belz... wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
One way to easily reconcile it was already mentioned earlier in this thread--an idea that the Enterprise's refit started off originally as just an engine upgrade and that it ballooned into a total redesign of the vessel.
This one's been around for years, but it's an impossible upgrade if you look at both designs one over the other.
Not at all. Shane's Johnson's now out-of-print Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise came up with a very good idea of how the incorporation of new systems led to compatibility problems that required changes in the ship's design to accommodate them. It's definitely plausible that after awhile, a decision was made to redesign the entire vessel. Basically, making it a refit that spiraled out of control.
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Old May 19 2013, 05:45 PM   #53
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

TMP enterprise is definitely the same ship, just refit. I don't buy the TMP Enterprise refit scrapping the original Enterprise completely, and here's why.

While the expense of upgrading the Enterprise really wouldn't be cost effective, in TMP isn't it alluded to in TMP that Admiral Kirk used his influence to refit the Enterprise, with Decker overseeing the refit personally?

With Kirk being a hero that literally had saved countless millions throughout his career as captain, including possibly saving Earth itself at least twice in the Doomsday Machine (it was headed to the heart of the Federation...or Earth?)and Changeling (Nomad would have surely made its way to Earth like V'ger),surely once he was an Admiral, he had exercised a lot of influence. Many in Starfleet and the Federation would have felt a certain amount of gratitude towards Kirk, like they did after Star Trek 4 (which they granted him captaincy of Enterprise-A).

So, is it so hard to think that someone with that kind of record that requested the refit of Enterprise, a famous ship not just under Kirk but also Pike (and April if you count TAS), would have that request fulfilled? Even if to just indulge him one last time?

Not to mention, Enterprise became a training vessel by TWOK, and probably would have remained so indefinitely until it sustained so much damage to require another refit in TWOK, much like the USS Constitution is today.
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Old May 19 2013, 06:47 PM   #54
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Not at all. Shane's Johnson's now out-of-print Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise came up with a very good idea of how the incorporation of new systems led to compatibility problems that required changes in the ship's design to accommodate them. It's definitely plausible that after awhile, a decision was made to redesign the entire vessel. Basically, making it a refit that spiraled out of control.
I'm not saying that the explanation is bad, C.E. I'm simply telling you that the design of the model makes it physically impossible unless they dismantle the whole ship.

However, if you assume it's just a retcon, the problem evaporates.

I have Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, by the way, and it's a very nice collection of deck plans, though I don't know how accurate they are. He gets the dates all wrong, however, as he's basically making it up as he goes.
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Old May 19 2013, 07:02 PM   #55
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Belz... wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Not at all. Shane's Johnson's now out-of-print Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise came up with a very good idea of how the incorporation of new systems led to compatibility problems that required changes in the ship's design to accommodate them. It's definitely plausible that after awhile, a decision was made to redesign the entire vessel. Basically, making it a refit that spiraled out of control.
I'm not saying that the explanation is bad, C.E. I'm simply telling you that the design of the model makes it physically impossible unless they dismantle the whole ship.
Actually, that's what's implied in Johnson's book and I see it as definitely something that would have to be done.
However, if you assume it's just a retcon, the problem evaporates.
It was never really a problem at all as it was presented. It was explained in the movie that Starfleet had spent over a year "redesigning and refitting" the Enterprise and that it was basically a brand-new ship when it was over. But even if just a little of the ship remained here and there within its decks and interior spaceframe, it still could be considered the original Enterprise.
I have Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, by the way, and it's a very nice collection of deck plans, though I don't know how accurate they are. He gets the dates all wrong, however, as he's basically making it up as he goes.
The thing about Johnson's book was that it was written prior to an official date being given to when TOS and the subsequent movies take place. It was also written before people got real serious about whether something was official or canon (it was never declared as either by Johnson).

But at the time, there was more than a little to suggest that TOS took place in the 22nd-Century, while the movies established it was the 23rd-Century. Johnson--along with a few others--tried to reconcile this by moving the dates towards the early 23rd-Century. But as with any tie-in book, it's subject to being overridden by subsequent onscreen material and this is true of more recent Trek reference books as well.
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Old May 19 2013, 07:16 PM   #56
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Actually, that's what's implied in Johnson's book and I see it as definitely something that would have to be done.
I guess it helps that the Federation doesn't have to deal with budget problems.

But even if just a little of the ship remained here and there within its decks and interior spaceframe, it still could be considered the original Enterprise.
If they dismantled the whole thing, and put it back together with entirely new materials with nothing reused, it would be a completely new ship named Enterprise.
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Old May 19 2013, 07:27 PM   #57
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Belz... wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Actually, that's what's implied in Johnson's book and I see it as definitely something that would have to be done.
I guess it helps that the Federation doesn't have to deal with budget problems.
Which does seem to be the case, or at least Starfleet's budget allows it to do such things.
But even if just a little of the ship remained here and there within its decks and interior spaceframe, it still could be considered the original Enterprise.
If they dismantled the whole thing, and put it back together with entirely new materials with nothing reused, it would be a completely new ship named Enterprise.
Which does imply that there is something of the original Enterprise still left within the redesigned ship or that Starfleet still considers her to be the original as she retained her original name and hull registry.
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Old May 19 2013, 07:44 PM   #58
Belz...
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Which does imply that there is something of the original Enterprise still left within the redesigned ship or that Starfleet still considers her to be the original as she retained her original name and hull registry.
Ok but I'm struggling to find it: the entire hull is changed, the nacelles, the struts, the bridge and corridors and rooms are different, the warp core and impulse engines are changed, the weapon system is upgraded, new torpedo launchers, shuttles, etc. Everything is different. The only thing we don't know about is the computer, but I'd be surprised if they changed the rest and kept that, of all things.

As I said, I'm quite willing to accept that it was meant as a retcon, but the picture in the rec room seems to depict the old version of the ship. Movie logic, I guess.
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Old May 19 2013, 09:24 PM   #59
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Belz... wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Which does imply that there is something of the original Enterprise still left within the redesigned ship or that Starfleet still considers her to be the original as she retained her original name and hull registry.
Ok but I'm struggling to find it: the entire hull is changed, the nacelles, the struts, the bridge and corridors and rooms are different, the warp core and impulse engines are changed, the weapon system is upgraded, new torpedo launchers, shuttles, etc. Everything is different.
I believe only externally, because it could be that various parts of the ship's interior spaceframe (or hidden skeleton) consist of reused original support frame members that were mated with new ones. Many of the interior bulkheads and deck plates could also have been retained, but repainted and refurbished to match the ship's new aesthetics.

But I think the ship would have new shuttles no matter what.
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Old May 19 2013, 10:02 PM   #60
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I believe only externally, because it could be that various parts of the ship's interior spaceframe (or hidden skeleton) consist of reused original support frame members that were mated with new ones. Many of the interior bulkheads and deck plates could also have been retained, but repainted and refurbished to match the ship's new aesthetics.
Yeah, but then the "neck" isn't of the same length, the engineering section is of a different shape and the saucer is both wider and narrower. That's quite a structural change.
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