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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 18 2013, 01:00 PM   #16
bullethead
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Two things I will never forgive the bean-counters at Paramount for in regards to DS9:

1)Not allowing the Dominion occupation of DS9 to last a few more episodes at the beginning of season six.
2)Not allowing the ENTIRE seventh season to be strictly continuous like the last nine eps of the seventh season (The Final Chapter). Boy, that would have been something.
No thanks. Stargate Universe pulled that off and it didn't end well (although that was due to weak writing more than the weakness of the idea). That's a style more suited for marathon viewing, because it mitigates the lack of closure/resolution in each episode, plus it doesn't give the audience leeway to miss an episode here and there without missing big chunks of story. In an era without streaming services like Hulu to catch people up, doing that would've been suicide.
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Old May 18 2013, 04:08 PM   #17
NKemp3
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
To be fair... even letting the Dominion occupy DS9 "at all" was a giant risk in the realms of Trekdom. I remember the first time I watched a "Time to Stand" I just got shivers from Dukat giving the Captain's Log.

Sure it would've been great if it lasted longer, but... well they can be forgiven that at the time the fans wanted a payoff to that story arc. DS9 set the standard in Trek for that continuous story telling. Could it have been better? Sure... but it's what we got and it was great. I wish Enterprise had taken a page from the DS9 book.
"A Time to Stand." That brings back memories. It was the first year that I had an internet connection (at the local library, couldn't afford a computer). I printed out pictures from First Contact and Insurrection. And some site had cracked how long the Dominion would occupy the station (six episodes). I also learned about Worf's wedding on that site. First Star Trek spoilers. They even had whole scripts online. It was fantastic! I didn't usually read the scripts. God, what was that, like, what 1997?
Ah, memories! I don't know of a site that had had entire scripts online but I do recall those great world wide web Trek sites that I discovered back aound this same time when I was being introduced to the internet in college. I can't recall all the names but my favorite was probably The Great Link. When it came to Trek discussions however I loved the forums on Psi Phi and the AOL Trek boards.

Anyhow it would have been common knowledge by the time "A Time to Stand" aired that there would be a six episode arc of the Dominion occupation of DS9.
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Old May 18 2013, 04:35 PM   #18
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

bullethead wrote: View Post
NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Two things I will never forgive the bean-counters at Paramount for in regards to DS9:

1)Not allowing the Dominion occupation of DS9 to last a few more episodes at the beginning of season six.
2)Not allowing the ENTIRE seventh season to be strictly continuous like the last nine eps of the seventh season (The Final Chapter). Boy, that would have been something.
No thanks. Stargate Universe pulled that off and it didn't end well (although that was due to weak writing more than the weakness of the idea). That's a style more suited for marathon viewing, because it mitigates the lack of closure/resolution in each episode, plus it doesn't give the audience leeway to miss an episode here and there without missing big chunks of story. In an era without streaming services like Hulu to catch people up, doing that would've been suicide.

I disagree. Of course I loved Stargate Universe which was more adult and therefore interesting to me than its silly, cartoon predecessors. I found that SGU season 2 was the most enjoyable space-based sci fi show since the days of DS9 and B5. It was like the new BSG without the overboard gloom-and-doom, with far more humor and far less tendency to go off-track. And speaking of Babylon 5 that was another example of a strictly-continuity based show and it worked splendidly. I didn't need marathon broadcasts or streaming to keep up with it just as I don't need that now for a heavy continuity show like Game of Thrones. Following it on a week-by-week basis was enough.

But going back to DS9, the seventh season had a lot of missed opportunities. Most of all it had a lot of filler and fair amount of dull stand-alone eps. The strongest part of the seventh season was the opening two parter (which picked up from DS9's final sp of season six and carried over to the third episode of season seven) and the Final Chapter. Is there any doubt that the Final Chapter (the last nine episodes/ten hours) of season seven gave the season its greates momentum and interesting developments with its use of strict-continuity? Imagine if the writers had the chance to do that all season long and gotten rid most of those disappointing Ezri eps. They could have scattered elements of those Ezri episodes throughout season seven as mere subplots in order to show her development and adjustment. Imagine if the The Siege of AR-558 had been spread out over three eps as a major storyline with other continuing storylines going on back on the station. Well, that would have worked for me at least. I trusted that team of writers and I'm sure they could have made it work. At the very least perhaps that would have allwed them to end the Dominion war a little earlier and allowed the last six eps to be dedicated to followup and taking care of other loose ends. (like whether Bajor would finally join the Federation).
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Old May 18 2013, 06:33 PM   #19
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

Game of Thrones is adult. Stargate Universe was a horny teenager pretending to be an adult.
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Old May 18 2013, 06:47 PM   #20
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Game of Thrones is adult. Stargate Universe was a horny teenager pretending to be an adult.
What would that make TOS. A pre-schooler playing house? I realize some of you still haven't recovered from having "sex" introduced into the Stargate franchise and thus are still recovering from a traumatic experience. I get it. Nonetheless the conflict and dysfunction amongst the crew of SGU was still true to life and closer to adulthood than te Stargate franchise will ever get. I don't want to bog down a DS9 board in an argument about SGU, but I will say I have never been as embarrassed to be a sci fi fan than in the overly negative reaction to SGU attempting to make Stargate into something other than a Saturday morning cartoon. Oh, wait. There is a DS9 connection. SGU was dumped on by Stargate and sci fi fans the same way DS9 was dumped on by Star Trek and sci fi fans during its first few years.
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Old May 18 2013, 07:17 PM   #21
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

I'm confused as to why Paramount suits wanted "to fly DS9 through the wormhole". Clearly they didn't know what they were talking about.
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Old May 18 2013, 09:44 PM   #22
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

toughlittleship wrote: View Post
I'm confused as to why Paramount suits wanted "to fly DS9 through the wormhole". Clearly they didn't know what they were talking about.
They might have been thinking that the station should be in unexplored territory and away from the stuff going on at Bajor. Yeah, it would have defeated the original purpose of Starfleet establishing Deep Space Nine, but it would have made the series more about going out and exploring rather than Bajoran politics and religion at that point.
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Old May 18 2013, 09:59 PM   #23
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

How reliable are these stories, it has been more than two decades since DS9 begun, can't memories change and fade...
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Old May 19 2013, 02:21 AM   #24
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

The new stuff in the interview, from what I can gather, are the bits about Roddenberry (particulary Risa) and wanting the station to travel through the wormhole. The rumors about Bashir on the chopping block had been around since the end of season one however when he was arguably the most unpopular character.

The DS9 through the wormhole idea is something i can see Paramount wanting because one got the sense in the interviews during those days that TPTB of DS9 were trying to defend the show's more stationary premise in comparison to previous Trek shows. The Roddenberry revelation, as I mentioned above, is the biggest one and one that I have not heard before, at least not from that angle. But I will say that when TNG was hitting its stride during its middle seasons there was a lot of stuff floating around that it was only after Roddenberry had released his grip on the production side of things (and of course died not so soon afterwards) did the series come into its own under Berman and Piller. This was respectfully talked about in the media although you would never read a quote from Berman and Piller or anyone else confirming this. So what Behr and Moore are saying now makes sense in that Roddenberry was a controlling type who was firm on his utopian vision of the 24th century. All Moore and Behr are doing are providing specific details (including the revelation that Stewart wanted to "sex up" Picard's image to some extent).
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Old May 19 2013, 04:07 AM   #25
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
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Phily B wrote: View Post
It really confuses me why the studios kept the "make it like TNG" mantra for so long, it eventually killed the franchise on television. I think a show like DS9 would be stellar in todays climate.
All things considered... DS9's staff wasn't -that- much darker than TNG's... what
.
DS9 WAS much darker than TNG. That's in part because you couldn't get more "lighter" than TNG....well, not outside of Stargate. TNG was great but in many ways it was more rosy and upbeat and positive than TOS. DS9 on the other hand was less feel-good because so many of its characters were shaded in darkness. Not to mention in its final two seasons there was an all-out war taking place in the AQ.
DS9 at it's core though had the same morality of TNG. Sisko upheld the same ideals of Picard, it's only his situation that was darker. Sisko was put in a position where his ideals came in direct conflict with the preservation of those ideals. Picard was never put in that kind of situation.

TNG presented us a utopia, and DS9 held that utopia up as something to strive toward that may not be really possible. But the ideals were the same.
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Old May 19 2013, 04:00 PM   #26
Lance
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

Interesting. The funny thing is I've always wondered about exactly how much interference from TPTB they had on the DS9 staff. As a syndicated show I've always felt TNG benefited from not having to meet strict criteria like a typical network show, and that Berman, Piller and Taylor were given a lot of leeway to self-regulate the content of that show (which they did). VOY famously had much more studio interference, but I've always suspected that the situation of it being a network show (UPN) was a large part of that. Which brings us back to DS9. My gut instinct has always been that DS9 didn't suffer much by way of studio "notes", but on reflection it seems clear that they did. The attempts to revamp the format (introducing the Defiant in season three, and transplanting Worf into the series in season four) indicate that there were obviously notes floating around saying the format needed boosting.

I'm certainly glad they resisted the temptation to "make it more like TNG" and that Godawful idea about putting engines on the side of the station. Maybe the Defiant was a compromise? An ability for the series to tell more rampantly "Star Trek" type stories with a ship while not selling out the concept of DS9 itself being stationary.
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Old May 19 2013, 09:18 PM   #27
Hober Mallow
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

Lance wrote: View Post
I'm certainly glad they resisted the temptation to "make it more like TNG" and that Godawful idea about putting engines on the side of the station. Maybe the Defiant was a compromise? An ability for the series to tell more rampantly "Star Trek" type stories with a ship while not selling out the concept of DS9 itself being stationary.
I remember when I read that DS9 was getting its own starship, my reaction was, "Oh, God, they're f***cking caving in!" The idea that the show was boring because "they don't go anywhere" was the most common criticism of the show, and by far the stupidest. Yeah, that's why CHEERS didn't work, because the bar wasn't flying off in space somewhere. Or 99.999% of all TV shows which every existed which don't "go anywhere." The whole idea of the Defiant felt like a not-so-veiled attempt to placate the morons who thought the show had to "go" somewhere.

However, had I known that Paramount had wanted the station to go blasting off with rockets pretending to be a starship, I would have thought, "Defiant? Yeah, I can deal with that."
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Old May 20 2013, 01:40 PM   #28
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Re: Moore/Behr Interview: Studio wanted to get rid of Bashir/Move Stat

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Two things I will never forgive the bean-counters at Paramount for in regards to DS9:

1)Not allowing the Dominion occupation of DS9 to last a few more episodes at the beginning of season six.
2)Not allowing the ENTIRE seventh season to be strictly continuous like the last nine eps of the seventh season (The Final Chapter). Boy, that would have been something.
Interesting. Both of these are ideas I am very opposed to - so if the 'bean counters' are responsible for stopping them, I suppose they deserve my thanks!
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