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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 139 19.36%
A 157 21.87%
A- 98 13.65%
B+ 78 10.86%
B 58 8.08%
B- 27 3.76%
C+ 38 5.29%
C 37 5.15%
C- 23 3.20%
D+ 11 1.53%
D 13 1.81%
D- 6 0.84%
F 33 4.60%
Voters: 718. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 19 2013, 12:45 PM   #3106
Chu'lak
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Garrett Wang ‏@GarrettRWang
As far as action and entertainment value go, the new film has no peer at the box office...as far as story goes, it needed work...


Ok, I don't know what to make of this. The star of the episode "Favorite Son" says the STID story needed work...
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Old May 19 2013, 12:50 PM   #3107
Therin of Andor
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
I loved this movie and there were plenty of things to talk and think about in it but in no way would I call it cerebral.
I wouldn't call any of Star Trek "cerebral". We first heard that term in reference to Star Trek in lectures by Gene Roddenberry, explaining how "The Cage" was originally rejected by TV executives. They wanted less things to think about and more action.

Were there really that many "thinking" issues in "The Cage" than in "Into Darkness"?

Was there really that much more action in "Into Darkness" than in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?

Chu'lak wrote: View Post
Garrett Wang ‏@GarrettRWang
As far as action and entertainment value go, the new film has no peer at the box office...as far as story goes, it needed work...


Ok, I don't know what to make of this. The star of the episode "Favorite Son" says the STID story needed work...
Garrett Wang needs more work.
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Old May 19 2013, 12:51 PM   #3108
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I loved this movie and there were plenty of things to talk and think about in it but in no way would I call it cerebral.
I wouldn't call any of Star Trek "cerebral". We first heard that term in reference to Star Trek in lectures by Gene Roddenberry, explaining how "The Cage" was originally rejected by TV executives.

Were there really that many "thinking" issues in "The Cage" than in "Into Darkness"?
No.

Was there really that much more action in "Into Darkness" than in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?
Yes.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:00 PM   #3109
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Were there really that many "thinking" issues in "The Cage" than in "Into Darkness"?
Well, I think so. They explore the theme of illusion quite a bit, without being too obvious about it. I assume "cerebral" means "makes you think". And I think the studio was right to think it wouldn't "click" with their audience.

Anyway, I think Into Darkness is smarter than people give it credit for, but I wouldn't call it cerebral.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:02 PM   #3110
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

Were there really that many "thinking" issues in "The Cage" than in "Into Darkness"?
No.

Was there really that much more action in "Into Darkness" than in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?
Yes.
And that's bad because...?

I know you enjoyed the movie, teacake. So did I.

What episodes are fans now saying are the "cerebral" ones that JJ should be emulating?
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Old May 19 2013, 01:07 PM   #3111
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
I think Into Darkness is smarter than people give it credit for, but I wouldn't call it cerebral.
It makes you think. Especially about the nature of terrorism. And the ongoing "Nature vs nurture" theme, from the previous film, via Pike and Kirk's confrontations in the latest one.

How much more thinking do we need?
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Old May 19 2013, 01:17 PM   #3112
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

^ I'll have to think about the answer to that.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:24 PM   #3113
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

STID is NOT cerebral, but it is topical. It's more relevant than 90% of the ST movies.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:28 PM   #3114
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

Were there really that many "thinking" issues in "The Cage" than in "Into Darkness"?
No.

Was there really that much more action in "Into Darkness" than in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?
Yes.
And that's bad because...?

I know you enjoyed the movie, teacake. So did I.

What episodes are fans now saying are the "cerebral" ones that JJ should be emulating?
Nothing is bad. I don't want cerebral. I make my own cerebral scenes, sex scenes, love scenes and conspiracy scenes in my head wherever Star Trek fails to deliver.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:47 PM   #3115
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RAMA wrote: View Post
STID is NOT cerebral, but it is topical. It's more relevant than 90% of the ST movies.
I agree.

Here's an incomplete list off the top of my head. You may disagree.

'The Cage' thinking issues:
1. The morality of Pike perhaps not answering a distress call.
2. Pike's disaffection with being in command and being in control over so many people's lives.
3. How people would cope with not being able to trust their eyes and ears.
4. Would being trapped in a 'Cage' where all your wants seem to be satisfied be that bad?
5. What about the fate of Vina?
6. Would you really kill yourself to avoid being imprisoned in a guilded cage for the rest of your life.
7. What about the fate of the Talosians. Surely Starfleet could help them is some way. But was it worth the risk?
8. A woman as 2nd in command. The horror of it all.

STID 'thinking' Issues.
1. Is it moral to execute an enemy of the state without trial?
2. Is it moral to use someone against their will for the greater benefit of your umm planet/country?
3. Was Kirk and co really wrong when they broke the PD?
4. Was Marcus completely wrong in every way? Surely someone had to do something about defending the Federation?
5. Was Kirk too reckless for command?
6. Is it OK for you to invade someone else's planet for a really good reason? And then kill a whole lot of their people?
7. Would you kill 42 people to save your daughter's life?
8. Did they do the 'right' thing in the end be refreezing Khan? What about his followers. They didn't do anything? Yet?


The thinking issues in 'Cage' seem to me to be more 'cerebral' and sci-fi themes while the STID issues are more contemporary political ones - which frankly is what Star Trek is quite often about.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:49 PM   #3116
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Factor in for inflation and the budgets for TNG and TOS were probably very similar.
I just had a look at this. Couldn't help myself

TOS had a per episode budget of $190,000 initially, but we know this was cut at least twice, and they were making episodes for around $180,000 by the end of it.

Let's go with the $190,000 figure.

In 1987 dollars, this is $660,000, about half of TNG's $1,300,000 budget per episode.

The first Trek film, TMP, cost around $156 million in today's dollars, compared to Star Trek : Into Darkness which, I believe cost $190 million.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:55 PM   #3117
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I think Into Darkness is smarter than people give it credit for, but I wouldn't call it cerebral.
It makes you think. Especially about the nature of terrorism. And the ongoing "Nature vs nurture" theme, from the previous film, via Pike and Kirk's confrontations in the latest one.

How much more thinking do we need?
Well your question was whether the Cage made you think more. My answer is yes. I don't think ID makes you think that much, although I did say it makes you think more than people give it credit for, so that's something. I actually think we kinda agree, here.

Last edited by Belz...; May 19 2013 at 02:10 PM.
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Old May 19 2013, 02:08 PM   #3118
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I think Into Darkness is smarter than people give it credit for, but I wouldn't call it cerebral.
It makes you think. Especially about the nature of terrorism. And the ongoing "Nature vs nurture" theme, from the previous film, via Pike and Kirk's confrontations in the latest one.

How much more thinking do we need?
Well you question was whether the Cage made you think more. My answer is yes. I don't think ID makes you think that much, although I did say it makes you think more than people give it credit for, so that's something. I actually think we kinda agree, here.

Cerebral is a misnomer really. In regards to The Cage, it's simply what the studio called it, ie: not enough gunfights and action, and too much talking not that it was too "smart". The issues in The Cage were perhaps less compelling than the ones in STID are to us in 2013.
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Old May 19 2013, 02:28 PM   #3119
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
I don't think ID makes you think that much, although I did say it makes you think more than people give it credit for, so that's something. I actually think we kinda agree, here.
The original post we were responding to was this:

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
But it is Star Trek lacking anything cerebral.
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Old May 19 2013, 02:32 PM   #3120
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

The elements for thought and discussion are there (as conveniently listed by CommishSleer). It's up to individual viewers to choose whether or not they want to give them any further exploration or deliberation.
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