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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 17 2013, 01:40 AM   #361
blssdwlf
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@ blssdwlf
Exactly my point. If the Enterprise's repair jobs are already 83% "complete", why the sudden rush to a) put her on "Priority One" and b) withdraw the repair crew from the Intrepid?
@Bob - this doesn't need to be answered. All we know in-universe is that Stone moved the Enterprise to "Priority One" and that meant adding Section 18 as manpower.

The main points are that:
1. The chart has the Enterprise on it.
2. She's being repaired.
3. The chart label is "Star Ship Status" and "% Complete"

That pretty much places the other nine star ships on the chart also as being repaired at various % of completion.

They would not be under construction or the status of their mission. It just doesn't fit well. Now you could say a ship in that list is could be under-going a massive refit or overhaul as it would fit under the idea of being repaired/replacement.

Timo wrote: View Post
And he's also assuming they're all heavy cruisers like the Enterprise rather than a mix of classes. I reject that simply because it takes a small and simplistic view of Starfleet's makeup.
Not really. It only indicates that this particular display covers the Star Ships currently under repair; another display titled "Star Destroyer Status" would then obviously cover the destroyer-class vessels, and so forth.
Even then, there are different classes of star ships. So Warped9's thinking of a mix of classes makes more sense than a singular class of ships on that chart.

Speaking of SB11, anyone notice that there are more repair sections than ships on that chart? You might be onto something about other charts for Star Destroyers, Scouts, Transports and the Intrepid not even being on the chart.
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Old May 17 2013, 03:16 AM   #362
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The reason for priority one is unknown....
The September 26, 1966 Final Draft script for "Court Martial" has a bit of dialogue that clarifies the point.

From Scene 3:

INT. STONE'S OFFICE

FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS. Columns
lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor Maintenance...Ships
Incoming...Ships Cleared.

KIRK'S VOICE
[continuing his Captain's Log]
A full report of damages was
made to...

ANOTHER ANGLE - STONE

A NEGRO, whose bearing marks him as a man accustomed to
command. No longer a flight officer, his uniform is some-
what different from Kirk's, who is sitting opposite.

KIRK'S VOICE
...the Portmaster of Star Base
11: Senior Captain Stone.

STONE
I can't possibly have the
Enterprise ready that fast.

Kirk, who has been reading a document, looks up.

KIRK
This is not a scheduled layover,
sir. I have a patrol course to
get back on.
(indicating chart)
Can they wait?

STONE
(considers, then)
If you exercise your
Mission-In-
Progress prerogative...they'll
have to.

KIRK
Consider it exercised.

Stone nods. He pushes button on desk.

STONE
Maintenance Section 18.

SOUND OF CLICK.

STONE
(a look at
the chart)
Your section is working on the
U.S.S. Intrepid. Reschedule.
U.S.S. Enterprise is on Priority One.

Stone clicks off the communicator. Nods at the paper Kirk
has been studying.

STONE
That makes three times you've
reac it, Captain. Is there an
error?

(...and then the scene continues on as we know and love.)

So it looks like, generally, you make an appointment to get your starship fixed (or upgraded, I suppose) on a scheduled layover--in which case it's probably first come, first served. But if you have an unscheduled layover, then they'll try to squeeze you in if they can. But if you exercise your "Mission-in-Progress" prerogative because you really need to get back to your patrol route and you just can't afford to be "fit in" to the schedule, then you are made a Priority One and get triaged to the front of the line.
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Old May 17 2013, 03:44 AM   #363
Creepy Critter
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

^ Thanks, GSchnitzer. That takes care of that issue!
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Old May 17 2013, 09:21 AM   #364
Timo
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Even then, there are different classes of star ships. So Warped9's thinking of a mix of classes makes more sense than a singular class of ships on that chart.
Well, a single class of ships in the sense that all of these are starships (or Star Ships, or whatever). Multiple classes of starships there, some older than Kirk's, some newer.

The neat thing is, the list of names Jein was working from can easily be seen as a list of TOS starships from various classes. It is, after all, a list of names to be used in TOS scripts, and it would stand to reason that TOS adventures would feature multiple starship classes rather than just one, especially when the ship in question would not be seen on screen.

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Old May 17 2013, 12:00 PM   #365
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Does anyone know if there was any thought or discussion regarding the possibility of trying to show other ship classes such as in "The Ultimate Computer," "The Omega Glory" and "The Tholian Web?" We know they went with reuse of stock footage because of time and budgetary constraints, but was a possible alternative even considered even if just momentarily? After all even though they managed to whip up a quick model for the Constellation it was always meant to be a ship similar to the Enterprise. But what of the others?
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Old May 17 2013, 01:10 PM   #366
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

OMG... "a NEGRO"!!!
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Old May 17 2013, 06:50 PM   #367
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Well, I actually think it makes sense to specify a negro here. We're talking 1960s television and that may have been the only way the writer (or whomever) could guarantee ethnic diversity. Leave the specification out and the casting department may think "Oh, a Commodore must be white. Kirk can't have a black superior officer."

Of course, that may not be the reason at all. It's a nice theory.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:14 PM   #368
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Okay, something has been nagging at me so I decided to go back and check.

In The Making of Star Trek there are reprints of memos dating around early August, 1967 wherein they are discussion proposed names for starships. The thinking behind these suggestions are to "establish the names of the 12 ships of the Enterprise Starship Class." The idea conveyed here seems to be implying sister ships like the Enterprise but not necessarily of the Enterprise-class.

Later it says "The Enterprise is a member of the Starship Class (there are twelve of them). Registry Number NCC-1701."

And later still there is reference to Kirk's first command "the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship."

From those nuggets alone we get the impression the Enterprise is a member of the Starship Class, but not actually cited as the class ship or the first bird. We also learn that Starfleet has other classes of spaceships (or starships) because Kirk is cited as having commanded a destroyer-class equivalent.

Throughout the text I cannot find any definitive reference to "Enterprise-class starship." And at this point the phaser schematic that will appear in "The Trouble With Tribbles" denoting "Constitution-class starship" has yet to appear onscreen even though it was made originally for "Space Seed" and predating these memos from August, 1967.

What I get out of all this is that MJ likely intended the Enterprise to be Constitution-class even though it would have been established as an indirect visual reference onscreen in "Space Seed." But the graphic didn't get used until much later and during that time perhaps no one else knew how specific MJ had been with his graphic and thus no one was talking about coming up with names for ships of the Constitution-class. They were just trying to establish names for sister ships like the Enterprise.

Now there is another wrinkle. Both the text and onscreen references are explicit that there are only twelve ships of the Enterprise's class. And yet they finalize on fourteen names on top of which later script drafts will reference names not on that established list, and one of them (Defiant) actually makes it onscreen. So was the Defiant a replacement for a previously lost ship or was it there all along as one of the twelve? One could argue the fourteen names were meant as a pool to draw from yet no one was really held to it if they had a another suggestion, which seems the case when they used Defiant in "The Tholian Web."

What I get from this is we really don't know all of the specific twelve names of the Starship Class. We know only some of them. It's called into question because they appear to establish a pool of names and then later ignore it.


Now, further, one name appears on the pool of names that could be cause for confusion: Valiant.

A Valiant is first mentioned in WNMHGB as a space vessel lost some 200 years prior. So I think it's safe to assume that Valiant wasn't one of the Starship Class. But later another Valiant is mentioned as being lost fifty years prior in "A Taste Of Armageddon." Could this Valiant be of the Starship Class or is it yet again another older ship that predates the existence of the Starship Class? I never got the impression the Starship Class vessels were easily fifty years old. At the time of the Kirk era the impression I get is the ships are no more than maybe twenty-five years old. If so then if there is indeed a Valiant among the Starship Class then I'm assuming it's still out there in operation as it's not the one referenced as destroyed at Eminiar 7.

Add another little tidbit. FJ gave the Valiant the registry NCC-1708 and 1708 is on Stone's wall chart. Take from that what you will. Jein gave the Valiant the number 1623 which is not on Stone's chart. With a 1600 number it's then possible the Valiant listed in the pool of names is actually an older class of vessel that was nonetheless of similar classification as the Enterprise. That Valiant (and Republic) could be of the Starship Class yet older versions of said class.


The Starship Class could be a classification that Starfleet has used for quite some time denoting their best-of-the-best ships, but of course as time and progress marches forward newer and more advanced versions could be introduced and the Enterprise is (at the time of TOS) among the newest, the elite twelve of which we really don't know all the names.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:16 PM   #369
Forbin
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Well, I actually think it makes sense to specify a negro here. We're talking 1960s television and that may have been the only way the writer (or whomever) could guarantee ethnic diversity. Leave the specification out and the casting department may think "Oh, a Commodore must be white. Kirk can't have a black superior officer."

Of course, that may not be the reason at all. It's a nice theory.
A casting note, undoubtedly. I'm just chuckling at the phrasing, which sounds blatant and awkward to 21st century sensibilities.
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Old May 19 2013, 12:58 AM   #370
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Okay, something has been nagging at me so I decided to go back and check.

In The Making of Star Trek there are reprints of memos dating around early August, 1967 wherein they are discussion proposed names for starships. The thinking behind these suggestions are to "establish the names of the 12 ships of the Enterprise Starship Class." The idea conveyed here seems to be implying sister ships like the Enterprise but not necessarily of the Enterprise-class.
Timo suggested the same some while ago in another thread. I agree that this is a possibility, but Bob Justman would probably not have used the term "Enterprise Starship Class" had "Constitution Class" been established behind the scenes (he would have rather said "12 ships like the Enterprise to avoid confusion, nitpicky as he was).

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Later it says "The Enterprise is a member of the Starship Class (there are twelve of them). Registry Number NCC-1701."

Throughout the text I cannot find any definitive reference to "Enterprise-class starship."
Your above quote comes from the lower half page 203 (Chapter 3 - Mission and Men) and 9 lines further down it reads

"The Enterprise-class starships have been in existence for about forty years..."

Since Jein mentioned the "forty years" in his treatise to suggest that Valiant couldn't be a starship like the Enterprise because it was fifty years old ("A Taste of Armageddon"), he obviously and conveniently ignored to elaborate on "Enterprise-class starship".

Probably it was cognitive dissonance, however I wasn't aware that it was contagious.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
So was the Defiant a replacement for a previously lost ship or was it there all along as one of the twelve? One could argue the fourteen names were meant as a pool to draw from yet no one was really held to it if they had a another suggestion, which seems the case when they used Defiant in "The Tholian Web."
If Excalibur was NCC-1664 (apparently nobody wonders why I wonder whether it's supposedly "1664" on that chart or "1864") it's possible that the Defiant inherited the two-digit contact code and became NCC-1764.
After Defiant was considered lost and/or destroyed it's possible Reliant inherited the two-digit contact code and became NCC-1864.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
But later another Valiant is mentioned as being lost fifty years prior in "A Taste Of Armageddon." Could this Valiant be of the Starship Class or is it yet again another older ship that predates the existence of the Starship Class? I never got the impression the Starship Class vessels were easily fifty years old. At the time of the Kirk era the impression I get is the ships are no more than maybe twenty-five years old. If so then if there is indeed a Valiant among the Starship Class then I'm assuming it's still out there in operation as it's not the one referenced as destroyed at Eminiar 7.
Since the much older Archon was a "starship" the second Valiant could have qualified as a starship, too (for its time and era).
Jein assumed the producers to be in error when deciding for Valiant to be a starship like the Enterprise, too. But, of course, just as the Eminiar 7 Valiant was named after the UESPA Valiant, there could have been a starship like the Enterprise bearing the same name (and not to mention later ships) that had been equally destroyed by the time he producers made up the list.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Add another little tidbit. FJ gave the Valiant the registry NCC-1708 and 1708 is on Stone's wall chart.
FJ gave the Intrepid the registry NCC-1708 (which is not on the starship status chart) and Valiant the registry NCC-1709 (which is on this chart).

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The Starship Class could be a classification that Starfleet has used for quite some time denoting their best-of-the-best ships, but of course as time and progress marches forward newer and more advanced versions could be introduced and the Enterprise is (at the time of TOS) among the newest, the elite twelve of which we really don't know all the names.
Obviously something we can agree on.

Bob
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Old May 20 2013, 07:48 PM   #371
Brown-Eyed Ghoul
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Well, I actually think it makes sense to specify a negro here. We're talking 1960s television and that may have been the only way the writer (or whomever) could guarantee ethnic diversity. Leave the specification out and the casting department may think "Oh, a Commodore must be white. Kirk can't have a black superior officer."
That's basically the way things were in television back then. Not so much that Kirk couldn't have a black superior officer; it was more that non-race-specific roles were played by white actors by default.

And yes, I'm old enough to remember when they were called Negroes.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:51 PM   #372
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

scotpens wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Well, I actually think it makes sense to specify a negro here. We're talking 1960s television and that may have been the only way the writer (or whomever) could guarantee ethnic diversity. Leave the specification out and the casting department may think "Oh, a Commodore must be white. Kirk can't have a black superior officer."
That's basically the way things were in television back then. Not so much that Kirk couldn't have a black superior officer; it was more that non-race-specific roles were played by white actors by default.

And yes, I'm old enough to remember when they were called Negroes.
oh, lord. me thinks it was written into the script to throw doubt on the accuracy of the chart. perhaps it be forged. perhaps it be delibrately there to show the comodores incompetence. by all things holy may be he was a slacker and made up em ships to snow over kirk into thinking he be busy workin hard when half them ships not even be there! so emphasis on the n word be to cast doubt and it sure as dang well convincs me why them there nccs be funky.

i personly feel it in my heart and soul that mr. josephs numbers be right. since the man gene, bless his soul, approved of them there prints, authorized them, nad couldve at any time told mr. joseph to go with these or any other numbers for his ships. specially since they be like on sheet 1, the title sheet. that there makes a kinda sense now there dont it.

i also have it from a higher source that mr. joseph read that there top ship number as 1708 not 1709. see that be exactly what a gal named ruth berman interpreted it as too. because you see like back then there be no dvds or vcrs. and 1708 is the intrepid by golly going by mr. joseph, and again there be (bless his soul) mr. great bird signing off on these prints with those there numbers on the first sheet and all.
they made quite an impression being int he smitonian and all. then they be carrid on to the technical manual. and my dice-chuckin pallys were always keen on joseph numbers as they were used in their star trek battles board gamez. i evn heard they be heard in the first real star trek flick by epsilon 9. i figure and feel in my soul thet they kinda carry lots of weight around like after i had a big fat meal. the numbers even reckon in some novels and plenty of them there blueprint packs the nerds go fer at the conz.

Last edited by Godblessed1701; May 25 2013 at 02:08 PM. Reason: quk fix after spilling beer on my beans
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Old May 25 2013, 08:23 PM   #373
aridas sofia
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

^ I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old June 4 2013, 11:38 PM   #374
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

"Starship' was a term for the deep space vessels, the ones with the longest range and that would be away from "home" the longest. So you could have the cruiser be a starship, or a heavy cruiser, or even a scout of a different design-- but probably not something like a destroyer-- too short range by design. FJs best skills were in flushing out the unseen areas on the ship-- making all the crew cabins fit in a logical way was amazing. Plus there's no logical way to have a round corridor in the secondary hull. No point to having a corridor follow the outside circular shape of the hull, just to get a circular corridor down there-- the windows tell us that much. Also, hard to believe the Enterprise and others like her were the best of the best because they were already in service for awhile. I would think it'd be more believable to say they were the best when they were built, like any ship is, but they've been away on their missions so long that newer ships have probably been built. Also why things looked so different in the universe of TMP-- once the Enterprise made it back home, the only one, the tech had advanced while they were gone.

I bet anyone who recreates the FJ plans will end up with more of what he did than they even think-- his layout just makes that much sense in most areas!
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Old June 8 2013, 08:03 PM   #375
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

They do at that.
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