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Old May 18 2013, 01:13 PM   #91
Guy Gardener
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Good stuff.

I'm onto the Britcom "Not Going Out" now.

In Shattered we found out that Kathryn and Chakotay get drunk together, but we think nothing ever happens.

Is that because they don't get drunk enough or because they get paralytic?
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Old May 18 2013, 02:51 PM   #92
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Chakotay should have broke out the peyote. All he'd have to do is say "my people" a few times and talk about his dad and she would have taken it, especially if he called it a herb.
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Old May 18 2013, 02:55 PM   #93
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Peyote is made form cactuses... That's a fricking big herb.

(Truthfully the world's largest Herb is the banana.)

The Klingons got stoned on camera a couple times, right?
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Old May 18 2013, 03:01 PM   #94
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

You grind it into powder. No one has to see what it looked like before.

I thought Klingons limited their imbibing to drink? We don't get to see anything else because the only time we see smoking in Star Trek as far as I can remember is Talbot in V. If they weren't so uptight about showing smoking (yeah we know humans have evolved past it..) I bet there would be heaps of scenes where people speculated that it wasn't straight tobacco.

Was there smoking in that bar Worf went into with the round lady singer singing Klingon opera?
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Old May 18 2013, 03:04 PM   #95
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

It was Unification. Bar is hazy but I am doubting we see anyone directly smoking. I'm still thinking Talbot was the only example.

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Old May 18 2013, 03:05 PM   #96
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

I'm thinking of room stoning from sweat lodges perhaps, like when Worf was trying to summon a vision of Kahless, but pulled the real thing.
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Old May 18 2013, 03:06 PM   #97
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Oh all that chanting and meditating oneself into a delusional/spiritual state. Boring.

Half of that was probably not enough oxygen with all the coals burning in a confined space.
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Old May 18 2013, 04:29 PM   #98
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Too many damn Bobbies.

Bobby Picardo was of course married, so he was out of bounds and a perfect gentleman.
WTF I've seen every episode of Voyager, most many times over and I never realized there are indeed THREE Roberts. I feel so stupid for not realizing that before LOL. I usually call McNeil "Bobby", Robert Picardo... well, Robert Picardo. Beltran I just call Beltran. I seriously should have realized that months ago... what the heck!

...

Kate Mulgrew was against the first female captain "sleeping with her crew", but I don't think she realized that the character didn't have to just sleep around... Janeway and Chakotay could have had a long, deep, meaningful relationship. Even if they stuck it in during the end of Season 7, it would have been a more logical progression than C/7.

.
There was a name protocol on set...


Robert = Beltan,


Robby = McNeil


Bob = Picardo


and for reasons that escape me...


Johnny = Ethan Phillps

C/7 never makes sense, don't even try to understand it.


teacake wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
[
She won't have a meaningful relationship with someone on her crew, but she was willing to sleep with a hologram in Fair Haven??? Nothing against holograms (the Doctor is my favorite), but UGH. I believe Chakotay genuinely cared for Janeway.
The Fair Haven hologram is just a pretty vibrator with a charming accent.
I actualy asked the male actor that very question at a con... which caused quite a few twitters among the audience as you might expect. (Thank god "Twitter" hadn't been on the scene in 2001)

He actually gave an insightful response to my "naughty" question which I appreciated quite a bit.


Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Okay I am now going to take time out from my very important posting frenzy in the Star Trek XI+ forum to explain to you all why Chakotay/7 works. For personal background in case anyone hasn't noticed I have always been J/7 and I have never been a Chakotay fan (other than saying he's good to look at). So I should be puking over C/7.

Chakotay is perfect for 7. Not perfect for the long term but perfect for where she is right now. He's kind, he's thoughtful, he's attracted to strong women and he will never hurt her. She is deeply wounded and unsure of herself as far as relationships and Chakotay has the patience, empathy and natural desire to dote on her that she needs. .....

What does Chakotay get out of it? As we know strong women are his thing, but this time he gets to be the strong man as well because 7 needs him. She's kick ass but she's vulnerable. He can give more to her than Seska ever needed or wanted. She may not show her appreciation but as she grows more comfortable in being in a relationship I think Chakotay will see her blooming and feel that he is appreciated. It will be an important relationship for both of them and while it will not last (and doesn't in the books) they will part with no animosity and with a gratitude for the time they spent together.
Ok...that was a good argument for C/7.

But I still don't like it!
Yes, Teacake... you should still puke!

As you point out, Seven needs a therapist, not a lover.

What does he get out of it? Besides great "arm candy" can SHE realistically support HIS emotional needs? If all he "needs" is to be in the orbit of a strong woman what will happen when this man gets cut free from the younger woman who no longer "needs" his kind of therapy? After living in the shadow of unrequited (?) love for 7 years and then having/losing Seven (according to your scenario) will he just resign the game and retire to a monastery?



As much as I don't want Mulgrew to be "right", I fear in this instance she it correct. Not because J/C is inherently wrong, but it would give too many people too much ammunition to degrade our Captain OR our First Officer.

Look at the contention up thread that only worthwhile men can dominate the woman... so if Chak comes out "on top" Janeway is diminished... and if Janeway comes out on top Chakotay is diminished.

Even withOUT sleeping with her he's considered a whipped dog by many, despite standing up to her frequently in season 1& 2, disputing her in season 3's finale, going against her wishes in season 6 and getting demoted for same. Did Riker ever do that to Picard?

J/C, however, will always live in my heart and my fanfic, and thankfully in certain youtube vidder's works.

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Old May 18 2013, 05:04 PM   #99
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Btw, Robert Duncan McNeill is "Robbie," like the good Scotsman he oughta be. No confusion.

Edit: oh, I see someone beat me to it.
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Old May 18 2013, 08:58 PM   #100
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

You've made the point just a few times before! While I don't completely agree with it, you definitely articulate the argument well and make some good points. My main beef with the Seven/Chakotay relationship is they just threw it at us with no buildup whatsoever and expected us to find it believable. The Paris/Torres relationship works because hey... it was a bumpy road with a lot of foreshadowing and build up to it.
Suddenly throwing it in at the end of Season 7 with no buildup is the main reason I don't like it. In addition to my personal preference of Janeway ending up with Chakotay.
We agree an awful lot despite the fact I'm often critical of Janeway's decisions and you're an avid fan!

Don't get me wrong, Paris/Torres are not an obvious match. But we see the buildup to it on screen and can see that "Hey, they made that work despite it all."

Chakotay and Seven? Well we get one episode of Seven with a holo Chakotay(who is more life like than the real one) and that's about it before they're lovey dovey.

Chakotay and Janeway? They do have a past to build upon. Resolutions hinted enough at that, though Scorpion did seem that their friendship may be more platonic. Though... being the Janeway critic I am... one disagreement... "Well I guess I am alone." End of romance.
They made up at the end though. I think everyone is allowed to have some rough patches. It was nice to see the usual "I'll bend over and take it" Chakotay and Janeway finally having some problems. I mean, Tom and B'Elanna had problems all the time, but that didn't mean they didn't love one another. Also...other than Scorpion, I think in Equinox they had a way worse fight...also she confined him to quarters. They made up at the end kind of, but for me that was a worse argument than in Scorpion. Janeway turned into a vengeful crazed maniac in that episode though...so I can't blame Chakotay for opposing her in that episode.

At least in Scorpion, we got this scene:
CHAKOTAY: I want you to know that disobeying your orders was one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do.
JANEWAY: I understand, and I respect the decision you made even though I disagree with it. What's important is that in the end, we got through this together. I don't ever want that to change.

Also... don't forget there was some chemistry demonstrated in episodes following like in Year of Hell when he used a bunch of replicator rations to make her that watch. And then again in Shattered, when they had their little private party in her room. :P Even though Chakotay claimed there were "lines they never crossed"...still...they had innuendo in that episode.

Holo-Chakotay was the ONLY thing we ever got before Endgame signaling anything resembling a C/7 pairing. And Chakotay was not even there or aware of it, so it barley counts. It only showed Seven's side of the story. Then we see nothing regarding it until Endgame where it's thrown in as a last resort.

Chakotay and Janeway have a fairly long history of friendship and almost-romance to build off of. Plus, I think she deserved to have someone to love and to love her back at the end, after all they had been through together... I mean... I will never stop believing there was something between them that was just not acted upon on the show. I will choose to regard the events in the most recent novels as my own personal canon.

And yes Paris/Torres was not an obvious match in the beginning, but they built it up over SEVERAL SEASONS and they went through a lot of rough patches and scuffles. I really liked their relationship and thought they had good chemistry.
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Old May 19 2013, 12:51 AM   #101
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Okay I am now going to take time out from my very important posting frenzy in the Star Trek XI+ forum to explain to you all why Chakotay/7 works. For personal background in case anyone hasn't noticed I have always been J/7 and I have never been a Chakotay fan (other than saying he's good to look at). So I should be puking over C/7.

Chakotay is perfect for 7. Not perfect for the long term but perfect for where she is right now. He's kind, he's thoughtful, he's attracted to strong women and he will never hurt her. She is deeply wounded and unsure of herself as far as relationships and Chakotay has the patience, empathy and natural desire to dote on her that she needs. .....

What does Chakotay get out of it? As we know strong women are his thing, but this time he gets to be the strong man as well because 7 needs him. She's kick ass but she's vulnerable. He can give more to her than Seska ever needed or wanted. She may not show her appreciation but as she grows more comfortable in being in a relationship I think Chakotay will see her blooming and feel that he is appreciated. It will be an important relationship for both of them and while it will not last (and doesn't in the books) they will part with no animosity and with a gratitude for the time they spent together.
Ok...that was a good argument for C/7.

But I still don't like it!
Yes, Teacake... you should still puke!

As you point out, Seven needs a therapist, not a lover.

What does he get out of it? Besides great "arm candy" can SHE realistically support HIS emotional needs? If all he "needs" is to be in the orbit of a strong woman what will happen when this man gets cut free from the younger woman who no longer "needs" his kind of therapy? After living in the shadow of unrequited (?) love for 7 years and then having/losing Seven (according to your scenario) will he just resign the game and retire to a monastery?
I've know a lot of couples over the years where one of them is very happy in the orbit of a stronger person, the examples I'm thinking of are all stronger women with doting man in orbit. And of course we've had millennium of literature with the opposite portrayal. Though I make fun of Chakotay I don't think this relationship pattern is in itself dysfunctional for everyone. If his comfort zone is of being a carer that's fine. 7 is incapable of taking advantage of that, probably his biggest struggle will be getting her to accept the care in the first place, as it sometimes is with Janeway.

As to what happens to him afterwards, well I'll go with the books.. he breaks up amicably with 7 and he and Janeway hook up. Hopefully now that no one is dead any more they will drop the Chakotay nervous breakdown storyline and everything will work out.. but I think she will always be the alpha partner and he will always be in a carer role who relishes being in orbit. And maybe in the 24th century that's no longer a subject for mockery.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:03 AM   #102
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

They described it well in How I met your mother. Every relationship is made up of two types a people, a reacher and a settler. One is reaching for someone out of their league and the other is settling for someone who tries really hard to make it work.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:10 AM   #103
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

The expectation for healthy relationships these days is that everyone is as equal as possible, equal meaning an even distribution of goals, chores, fulfillment and sacrifices. This makes a lot of good relationships look unbalanced even though it may be working out just fine for the people in them.
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Old May 19 2013, 01:19 AM   #104
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

Equal means that they don't need each other because they're both fantastic. I've seen this. Basically separate lives and then they sleep sexlessly in the same bed. Or equal means that they're both complete fuck ups helping the other drown faster in whatever combined shitstorm the two of them are generating.

Absolute equality seems like an unlikely find.

Forcing equality on an inferior is asking for trouble.

Dragging someone down a couple level seems unfair too.

Healthy??

**Snigger**

Lets go cornhole a unicorn while we're at it.
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Old May 19 2013, 02:42 AM   #105
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Re: Chakotay and Janeway romance

teacake wrote: View Post
As to what happens to him afterwards, well I'll go with the books.. he breaks up amicably with 7 and he and Janeway hook up. Hopefully now that no one is dead any more they will drop the Chakotay nervous breakdown storyline and everything will work out.. but I think she will always be the alpha partner and he will always be in a carer role who relishes being in orbit. And maybe in the 24th century that's no longer a subject for mockery.
Actually from the female view point right now in romantic literature, the beta male (think accountant, wears glasses, isn't physical) has a lot of fans. I know that there are a lot of fan fic authors that write Chakotay as the "alpha" male type, but I find nothing wrong with the "beta" Chakotay we saw most often on Voyager.
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