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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 17 2013, 07:14 PM   #31
cardinal biggles
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

How did Picard abandon him, other than refusing to sacrifice himself by giving all his blood so Shinzon wouldn't die of Writer's Technobabble Syndrome or whatever was ailing him?
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Old May 18 2013, 05:00 AM   #32
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Xavier_Storma wrote: View Post
That was Shinzon's problem. He did not only want to execute revenge on the Romulans, but on everyone because he felt abandoned.
But that's not really true. He may have felt abandoned, but that was certainly not his motivation for attacking Earth. The only reason why he eventually decided to attack Earth was because the renegade Romulans kept pressuring him to. Romulans, I might add, that he really had no obligation to. Yes, they helped him kill the Senate and take over the planet, but once that was accomplished, Shinzon could have just offed them too. But instead he let them boss him around, even though he was in charge! Just one of many things fundamentally wrong with this film.
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Old May 18 2013, 03:00 PM   #33
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But that's not really true. He may have felt abandoned, but that was certainly not his motivation for attacking Earth. The only reason why he eventually decided to attack Earth was because the renegade Romulans kept pressuring him to. Romulans, I might add, that he really had no obligation to. Yes, they helped him kill the Senate and take over the planet, but once that was accomplished, Shinzon could have just offed them too. But instead he let them boss him around, even though he was in charge! Just one of many things fundamentally wrong with this film.
Then why did some of them try to help Picard stop him?
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Old May 19 2013, 12:22 PM   #34
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Shinzon wanting to destroy Earth didn't make much sense to me either. Its a planet he's never been to and done nothing to him, or was he going to threaten to kill everyone on the planet unless Picard handed himself over to Shinzon?

His real gripe was with Romulous, but all he did there was kill the senators and seize control, what about the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe the Romulan people in general and the vast majority of the military would just accept it without any kind of opposition!

I like Tom Hardy, but I'd have preferred to see James Marsters in the role--but even better would have been Patrick Stewart with some X-Men 3 CGI to make him look younger
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Old May 19 2013, 12:32 PM   #35
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I like Tom Hardy, but I'd have preferred to see James Marsters in the role--but even better would have been Patrick Stewart with some X-Men 3 CGI to make him look younger
A scarred version of Patrick Stewart would have been it.

Shinzon was supposed to replace him. So let him be the same age. But since things went wrong and he fought in the Dominion war, let him have one half of his face burned, one arm crippled or something like that.

Shinzon should have the genetically programmed drive to overthrow the Federation and to follow the orders of his programmers, no matter how irrational it might seem at the time. And throughout the film we see him fight against himself because of that. Picard recognizes this and tries to appeal to his human side. But when his good side wins the battle, it's already too late for him and he gets killed.

Ditch the B4 story, because two clone stories is too much.

The film should have delved into the clone infiltrator story instead. Let there be an entire group of Starfleet officials who actually got replaced and start to attack the Enterprise. Let that be the moment where Shinzon overcomes his programming and does the RIGHT thing by trying to save Picard, getting killed in the process.


It would basically be a combination of the Picard/Shinzon and Data/B4 plots. Shinzon's internal battle, B4's infiltration, and Data's scrifice.
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Old May 20 2013, 03:44 AM   #36
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
But that's not really true. He may have felt abandoned, but that was certainly not his motivation for attacking Earth. The only reason why he eventually decided to attack Earth was because the renegade Romulans kept pressuring him to. Romulans, I might add, that he really had no obligation to. Yes, they helped him kill the Senate and take over the planet, but once that was accomplished, Shinzon could have just offed them too. But instead he let them boss him around, even though he was in charge! Just one of many things fundamentally wrong with this film.
Then why did some of them try to help Picard stop him?
If you watch the movie, you'll see that they realized that allying with Shinzon was a mistake, because they think he wants to destroy Earth, not just to attack it. Which of course makes no sense, because attacking Earth and destroying Earth kinda go hand in hand. Reason #237 as to why the movie is flawed.
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Old May 21 2013, 01:04 PM   #37
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

IMHO, you can't fix a fundamentally flawed film just by changing the ending.

Nemesis was a good idea on paper; but a poor film once written and made.

I blame Stuart Baird for a lot of the bad, but everyone involved in the creative aspects must be held to task for it as well.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:40 PM   #38
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Frontier wrote: View Post
IMHO, you can't fix a fundamentally flawed film just by changing the ending.
I never said it would fix everything. But at least it would be unexpected and pretty much permanent.
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Old May 21 2013, 06:41 PM   #39
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

In this particular case I couldn't equate "unexpected" with "good". Data makes his way to the Scimitar to save Picard only to have Picard force(?) Data to save himself, right after they've found a "clone" of Data that contains Data's memories? Seems like a waste of material.
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Old May 22 2013, 12:24 AM   #40
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Shinzon wanting to destroy Earth didn't make much sense to me either.
Yeah, that bothered me as well.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A scarred version of Patrick Stewart would have been it.

Shinzon was supposed to replace him. So let him be the same age.
Exactly. Hardy is very good but Stewart _is_ Picard, so it would have made the "reveal" a lot more poignant. As it stands they have to tell you it's a clone, but the crew act all shocked.
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Old May 24 2013, 06:42 PM   #41
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

I think Nemesis is...fine. I bashed it when all I had seen were snippets and knew the plot. "Clones??? CMON!" But once I saw the whole thing, I think it's 'badness' is overrated.

Though I would:

Replace B4 with Lore (requiring massive changes of course, and the end isn't that Data is in Lore, but rather that Lore is shaken enough by Data's death that he rethinks his path)

Remove the dune buggy scene.

Add back in a lot of the character stuff that got cut.
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Old May 26 2013, 02:36 AM   #42
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Honestly, the story for Nemesis was just bad. Not Final Frontier bad, but almost as ill contrived as the plot for Final Frontier. It had a poor villain, with attempts at fan service that ended up thrown at the cutting room floor. It would have been better if somehow Lore was revived and we dealt with a crystal entity plot, or if they had Sela be the main villain. The dune buggy scene was excessive and not necessary. If they were to break up the movie into television episodes, then it would make sense to include the scene. However, since it's a movie, it does very little to advance the plot, other than to open up the possibility of bringing back Data in the form of B4.
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Old May 26 2013, 10:13 AM   #43
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Lance wrote: View Post
I've given it a great deal of thought (not having a life can do that to a person ), and IMO what Nemesis really needed to work with that story is for Shinzon to not be Picard's friggin' CLONE.

Look at it this way: North Korea. Imagine Shinzon as Kim Jong Un. He's the cocky young heir apparent to a long time nemesis of the Federation. There's been a spill in the Romulan senate and this new guy has become praetor. The Feds know nothing about him, and are cautious about what his true motives are, especially after he makes an offer of peace. All of this is exactly as seen in the movie, but where the plot splits with the established script is that in this version Shinzon isn't a Picard clone, but rather a genuine Reman... or possibly even a Romulan. The movie takes a more political flair, and Picard no longer has a 'personal' stake in the plot. Rather, he has to act as a professional diplomat, immediately aligning him to the Picard character as seen on TV. The plot could go in any number of better directions from this setup than it did in the actual movie. Shinzon being Picard's clone is a major headache in the existing script and makes a mockery of Shinzon as a villain (and Picard in the process too).

Instead of being a souless action shoot 'em up, instead Nemesis could have been an intriguing political drama... all without changing too much about the fundamental story setup. And with Shinzon being radically unhinged, they could still have worked some action scenes in to keep the popcorn munchers happy. Win/Win.
I agree Shinzon being Picard's Clone was the weak link of the film. Really, I don't think the film as a whole, was a bad one.

But I had always been of the opinion that where was Sela in all this? Personally, Sela being Picard's "Nemesis" makes a lot more sense than a clone of Picard wanting to kill him.

So, I think if they had substituted Shinzon for Sela, it might have been a better plot. However, the actress that played Sela, Denise Crosby, couldn't have hoped to be anywhere near as menacing as Tom Hardy was.
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Old June 2 2013, 02:00 PM   #44
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Re: Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

With NEM, the broad consensus seems to be a total re-write would have been necessary to save it.


The entire plot and underlying thematic focus on the nature/nurture debate were completely out of place for TNG's last adventure.


-Shinzon as a Romulan Julius Caesar, indifferent to a small fish like Picard.

-No B4
-No Remans

-Riker and Troi already married, already in command of the Titan (off-screen character growth and narrative development worked just fine in the TOS films).
-No Earth destroying weapon

-No Sela (!)

-Allow Worf to be separated from the main plot and then worked into the main events in a believable way rather than just lazily throwing him back on the Ent bridge.

-Add Spock and make it a conclusion to the Unification storyline. Give it some scope.




NEM should have been TNG's capstone epic story. All the elements were there. In retrospect, the seeds of NEM's demise were probably planted when they greenlit INS. That meandering film added precious little to the TNG story and forced the final film to cover more ground than should have been expected. And then it went downhill from there.

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