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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 16 2013, 01:13 PM   #31
Forbin
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

"Smashy Crusher" was, in fact, a nickname Beverly's great-great-grandma picked up during a pub crawl one winter weekend.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:59 PM   #32
Marsden
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

I understood GQ, but they were Chompers.

Smashy Crusher should be a new rock band!

I think Amok Time makes perfect sense.

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Personally, I thought it stupid for Kirk to get wrapped up in it. Sure, he doesn't want to lose his first officer (thinking Stonn would kill him), but then to have his first officer kill him? Fight to the death. And if he gets lucky and wins? Either way he loses. ILLOGICAL. But McCoy saved the day, slipping him a neural paralyzer. Knocked him out, simulated death. Even still, Kirk could have started to lose consciousness at the wrong moment and then Spock would have decapitated him once his guard was down. And no, the neural paralyzer wasn't a Kirk/Bones collaboration--no dialog to support it. He was on a path of losing either way. Really stupid.
Gary, did you listen to the episode?

MCCOY: You can't do it, Jim.
KIRK: I can't?
MCCOY: No. She said their laws and customs were not binding on you.
KIRK: And you said Spock might not be able to handle him. If I can knock Spock out without really hurting him
MCCOY: In this climate? If the heat doesn't get you, the thin air will. You can't do it!
KIRK: If I get into any trouble, I'll quit. And Spock wins, and honour is satisfied.
MCCOY: Jim, listen, if you
KIRK: Bones. He's my first officer and my friend. I disregarded Starfleet orders to bring him here. Another thing, that's T'Pau of Vulcan. All of Vulcan in one package. How can I back out in front of her?
T'PAU: It is done. Kirk, decide.
KIRK: I accept the challenge.
T'PAU: Here begins the act of combat for possession of the woman, T'Pring. As it was at the time of the beginning, so it is now. Bring forth the lirpa.
(They are presented with wicked-looking half moon blades set in a wooden shaft, with a counterweight at the other end.)
T'PAU: If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.
KIRK: What do you mean, if both survive?
T'PAU: This combat is to the death.
KIRK: Now wait a minute, ma'am. Who said anything about a fight to the death?
MCCOY: These men are friends. To force them to fight until one of them is killed
T'PAU: I can forgive such a display only once. Challenge was given and lawfully accepted. It has begun. Let no one interfere.
(And so the fight begins, first with a trial of brute strength, then a good swing by Spock slices open Kirk's tunic and cuts his chest. It is clear that the first officer will kill his captain, given the chance. When Kirk is down and unarmed, Spock goes in for the final blow.)
MCCOY: Spock! No!
(And Kirk rolls away just in time, then disarms Spock.)
T'PAU: Kroykah!
MCCOY: Is this Vulcan chivalry? The air's too hot and thin for Kirk. He's not used to it.
T'PAU: The air is the air. What can be done?
MCCOY: (holding up a hypo) I can compensate for the atmosphere and the temperature with this. At least it'll give Kirk a fighting chance.
T'PAU: Thee may proceed.
MCCOY: You're going to have to kill him, Jim.
KIRK: Kill Spock? That's not what I came to Vulcan for, is it? What's that?
MCCOY: It's a tri-ox compound. It'll help you breathe. Now be careful!
KIRK: Sound medical advice.
So, Bones did save the day, but Kirk didn't know anything about "to the death" until after he agreed. Talk about fine print, right? He has no intention of killing anyone.

KIRK: If I get into any trouble, I'll quit. And Spock wins, and honour is satisfied.
KIRK: Now wait a minute, ma'am. Who said anything about a fight to the death?
Bones took a calculated risk, but he was against the wall, should he stand and do nothing? So he actually allowed Kirk to "quit" by drugging him. Honor was satisfied and no one died. The dialogue is quite clear.

KIRK: Blame McCoy. That was no tri-ox compound he shot me with. He slipped in a neural paralyser. Knocked me out, simulated death.
If Bones told Kirk what he was doing:
1. Kirk would be dishonest.
2. The Vulcans would have heard and who knows what law would apply at that point.
The big guy with the big ax was ready to split McCoy from crown to groin if he interfered.

(Actually, I don't know that last part, I just read that in a Conan book and like throwing it in whenever I can.)
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Last edited by Marsden; May 17 2013 at 06:19 PM.
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Old May 17 2013, 06:32 PM   #33
Redfern
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old May 17 2013, 07:40 PM   #34
danellis
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Redfern wrote: View Post
And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill
"Deaths" like that are ten a penny in StarTrek

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Old May 17 2013, 09:13 PM   #35
Marsden
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Redfern wrote: View Post
And for all we know, maybe Kirk technically "flat lined" due to the drug and thus could be considered "dead" by the ancient laws. He was beamed up to the ship rather quickly, so we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill
Really, a shot of stokaline and all better!
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Old May 18 2013, 01:52 AM   #36
Greg Cox
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
It was far from clear at the time that "Amok Time" was written that Vulcans were "co-founders" of anything. We had never seen a Vulcan other than Spock and had no clear idea whether anyone else on the Enterprise had, either.

I know that's hard to imagine forty-odd years later, but Vulcans were rather mysterious and exotic (to use a somewhat politically incorrect but useful word) and little if anything had been said about any alien members of the Federation other than Vulcans. Sturgeon was an imaginative science fiction writer and he approached the Vulcans as if they were an alien species, rather than simply a national or ethnic grouping (the latter being the way Trek has chosen for the most part to treat alien life since) who lived on an isolated planet. He thought in sf terms, IOW, rather than TV.
Exactly. If you go back and watch the early episodes, Kirk and the crew tend to treat Spock as a very mysterious and exotic curiosity. One gets the impression that Spock is the first Vulcan most of them have ever met. "Tell me about the moons on your planet, Mister Spock." Etcetera.

And the idea that the Vulcans are secretive and reclusive never really went away. As late as The Search for Spock, Kirk and the higher-ups at Starfleet are apparently unaware of that whole "katra" business . . . and seem somewhat skeptical about "Vulcan mysticism" in general.

Heck, in "Journey to Babel," McCoy doesn't know what a sehlat is either . . .
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Old May 18 2013, 07:07 AM   #37
Anwar
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

What about the Starfleet Doctor onboard who interned at Vulcan? Surely HE would've known what was going on. Doctor M'Benga.
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Old May 18 2013, 09:40 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Not necessarily, as he would have been under rather controlled conditions and might well have been denied access to patients who might have compromised Vulcan secrets.

In any case, it's beyond miraculous that McCoy would know the physiologies of two species well enough to operate - most humans today fail to master one despite extensive training. There are probably specialists in Starfleet for Vulcan and Klingon medicine, but there's no conceivable way Starfleet could afford to place them aboard the Enterprise, and no particular motivation to do so.

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Old May 18 2013, 09:44 AM   #39
Gov Kodos
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

And M'Benga may have been brought aboard at the urging of McCoy as a result of the events of Amok Time and Journey to Babel.
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Old May 18 2013, 08:45 PM   #40
Elder Knight
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Redfern wrote: View Post
... we can only assume McCoy was able to restart his [Kirk's] heart and breathing before brain damage set in.

Sincerely,

Bill
It must've been a close call there -- that would explain Kirk's cluelessness in "Trouble With Tribbles" (maybe that was the next episode chronologically): he was still regaining brain function.
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Old May 18 2013, 09:47 PM   #41
cheesepuff316
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Timo wrote: View Post
Spock likens his mating drive to that of the salmon, but he never says it would be cyclic (for the salmon, it isn't - they can do it exactly once).
Timo Saloniemi
Amok Time - may only be once, like the salmon
Voyager (Tuvok/Vorik) - suggests that it is every seven years.....
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Old May 20 2013, 03:03 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Yup - something changed after the introductory episode all right.

But with Tuvok and Vorik, it seems the bouts of pon farr come because these males don't have spouses. Vorik is single, Tuvok is outside telepathic contact with his wife. We don't have any real evidence that married Vulcan males would undergo pon farr, then, so Starfleet shouldn't have much of a problem with it.

Or do we actually get references to pon farr in marriage? (Silly speculation by local inexperts Harry Kim and Tom Paris definitely doesn't count!) If not with Tuvok and Vorik, then perhaps with Sarek? I can't think of any.

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Old May 21 2013, 02:17 PM   #43
Nacluv
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
Later Treks have developed a Trek history that says Vulcans were very involved in Earth's first "baby steps" into space and were ubiquitous (and overbearing) on Earth through much of that time.
Even though this was conceived later, it still correlates well with TOS.

Because even though Vulcan was part of the Federation, most Vulcans were Vulcan ambassadors or something similar and not many chose to join Starfleet. I believe Spock had at least some influence on why there were so many more Vulcan Starfleet officers a century later. And naturally, a lot more was known about Vulcans by the 24th century.
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Old May 23 2013, 02:20 AM   #44
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Hi, I'm a new guy so I hope you don't mind me butting in but when I saw a thread about Amok Time I just had to chime in. What I never understood was why Kirk didn't back out when he learned that the fight was to the death. Or, put another way, I always thought it was kind of deceitful of T'Pau to not clarify that to Kirk before asking him if he accepted the challenge. IIRC, she did say something to the effect that their laws were not binding on them, but she might have mentioned the whole fight to the death thing. Kirk might have changed his mind had he known that in advance.
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Old May 23 2013, 03:00 AM   #45
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Location: New Zealand
Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
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