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 The Trek BBS Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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 May 17 2013, 06:09 AM #826 Lt. Uhura-Brown Lieutenant Commander   Location: New Zealand Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix Where did the extra mass go when Tuvix was created? Assuming Vulcans have a similar mass as humans, and Talaxians with their dense musculature have slighter more mass, squeezing all that matter into a Tuvix-shaped object should have made him weigh anywhere between 400 and 500 lbs or so? However if Tuvix's density was halfway between Tuvok's and Neelix's, where did they extra matter go to, and return from after the two were restored?
May 17 2013, 06:11 AM   #827
Dream

Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

 Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: Where did the extra mass go when Tuvix was created? Assuming Vulcans have a similar mass as humans, and Talaxians with their dense musculature have slighter more mass, squeezing all that matter into a Tuvix-shaped object should have made him weigh anywhere between 400 and 500 lbs or so?
It makes as much sense as Riker being split into two copies. You aren't suppose to think of the technobabble, but the drama.

 May 17 2013, 06:17 AM #828 CorporalCaptain Admiral     Location: North America Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix You'd think that by the 24th century, there'd be some definitive Federation law on the personhood status of the products of transporter accidents that would cover Brundlefly-type cases. __________________ “A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP” — Leonard Nimoy (1931-2015)
 May 17 2013, 06:24 AM #829 Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral     Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you. Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix You know what Quantum indeterminacy is. (It's not even a question.) Those two men were simultaneously alive and dead at the same time. So yes. They were dead. You are right. But they also weren't. All these Starfleet jokers are Post-Plankian-Physicists. Um... How exactly does a Heisenberg compensator compensate? __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
May 17 2013, 06:30 AM   #830
MacLeod

Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

 Guy Gardener wrote: How exactly does a Heisenberg compensator compensate?
Very well thank you.

At least they acknowledged the Heisenberg uncertantity principal.
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 May 17 2013, 09:03 AM #831 teacake Fleet Admiral     Location: Nyotaimori Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix Goodbye, goodbye! I am going to see Star Trek Into Darkness for a third time!! Y'all have fun now. Don't fuck too much with Guy, he perturbs. __________________ "Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne
May 17 2013, 10:04 AM   #832
Gov Kodos

Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

 teacake wrote: Goodbye, goodbye! I am going to see Star Trek Into Darkness for a third time!! Y'all have fun now. Don't fuck too much with Guy, he perturbs.

Enjoy the movie teacake.
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May 17 2013, 04:39 PM   #833
Brit
Captain

Location: Texas
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[QUOTE=Dream;8101480]
 Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: Where did the extra mass go when Tuvix was created? Assuming Vulcans have a similar mass as humans, and Talaxians with their dense musculature have slighter more mass, squeezing all that matter into a Tuvix-shaped object should have made him weigh anywhere between 400 and 500 lbs or so?
I kind of asked this same question on another board (and no the thread wasn't about Tuvix). I ask how could something be massive in weight and yet small in dimension. I was told to read Warped Passages by Lisa Randall. It a very interesting book, written in layman terms and it explains about extra dimensions (and no that is not the same thing as alternate time lines - although thinking about it, it could ).

Anyway we perceive four dimensions, length, width, height, and time. We know what a cube looks like to us, but what would it look like to someone that could perceive those extra dimensions. I bring a kind of example lol.

I guess what I'm saying is that the mass is there, we just cannot perceive it.
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May 17 2013, 08:34 PM   #834
Shane Houston
Commander

Location: Louisville Kentucky - Halliwell
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote:
I've explained that Neelix and Tuvok were dead five ways till Sunday, and I'm not gonna repeat myself again. But I will address this:

 Halliwell wrote: I guess you would say that Commander Sisko was a murderer when he forced Verad to give up the Dax symbiont. Remember that after Verad was joined with Dax he became a new entity.
Possibly. I haven't seen that episode, so I don't know enough about it to come to an informed conclusion. I don't rule out the possibility, though.

 But I guess all you need is enough hate for Kathryn Janeway to give Sisko a pass for saving Jadzia, his friend, at the expense to the new Verad Dax entity.
Okay, listen: I do not hate Janeway, and I'm not sure why you would think I do. I actually rather like the Janeway character. I think Kate Mulgrew is an awesome actor, and I think it's absurd that there haven't been more female captains in Star Trek, or more female series lead characters.

I regard Janeway's decision in "Tuvix" to be an outlier in her characterization, as I simply do not think a starship commander compassionate enough to protect an innocent world like the Ocampa from foreign aggression that she would willingly strand herself across the galaxy, would be the type to kill an innocent man.

So from an out-universe perspective, I think it's bad writing that's inconsistent with the character.

From an in-universe perspective, however, if I were an admiral at the Starfleet JAG office? I would think Janeway amazing, a hero, someone who saved her crew and the Federation many times over. But I would also think that in this instance, there is probable cause to indict her for murder, and I would want her put before a court-martial for it.

A person can have very complex attitudes about someone's actions, and can think that they did something truly, utterly wrong, without hating them.
I call bullshit. I don't care if you say Tuvok and Neelix were dead or not, you're wrong. You can't have a living Tuvix and claim that the cells that make him sentient, those of a combined Tuvok and Neelix , are dead yet alive at the same time. Regardless of the outcome of the transporter accident, Tuvok's and Neelix's wishes would count..since the two men are still existing, just as the Dax symbiont does with it's hosts. I think you want to think of them as dead because it makes the dilemma of the episode more clear cut that way. But the way it was written, there is no evidence whatsoever that Tuvok and Neelix are dead.

I'm glad you don't hate Kate Mulgrew or Janeway, but by your arguments Sisko, like I said above, would be just as much a murderer as you're saying she is. He forced a combined life form, Verad Dax, to become seperated, causing harm to the host for life, to save Dax's life. I would like you to watch the episode or the Enterprise episode where they cloned Tucker and forced his clone to his death to save Tucker, another close friend of a commanding officer.

Maybe I'm biased, but I did go back and watch this episode again so I could have an informed opinion and a fresh perspective about Janeway's motives. There are some things she's done I'd question or court martial her for, but not this. The episode would have been different if the EMH had not refused to do it, but you have to remember the Doctor himself is a program influenced by thousand of doctor's through out the Federation. You don't know how many of those doctor's, for example Doctor McCoy, would have done the separation. And that would not have made him a murderer, just treating an ill patient.

You know what sucks, and the creators of the episode did this just so we can have a discussion like this, but it sucks that the episode ended with the captain walking out of sickbay and no comments from Neelix or Tuvok, letting us know if they remember being joined as Tuvix.
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May 18 2013, 09:53 AM   #835
Sci

Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

 Halliwell wrote: I call bullshit. I don't care if you say Tuvok and Neelix were dead or not, you're wrong. You can't have a living Tuvix and claim that the cells that make him sentient, those of a combined Tuvok and Neelix , are dead yet alive at the same time.
It is not the particular cells that define a mind as existing or not existing; it is the particular system of interaction between the neurons. It is not the particular instruments that define a symphony as being played or not played; it is the system of interaction between those instruments.

If the instruments are playing a different composition, then that symphony is over. If the neurons have created a different system of interaction, that mind is over -- which means that person is dead.

 I'm glad you don't hate Kate Mulgrew or Janeway, but by your arguments Sisko, like I said above, would be just as much a murderer as you're saying she is. He forced a combined life form, Verad Dax, to become seperated, causing harm to the host for life, to save Dax's life.
You may well be right. And, really, I can think of numerous other examples where one might argue that Sisko should be court-martialed for murder or other similarly horrific crimes -- poisoning the Maquis planet; tricking the Romulans into joining the Dominion War; all but ordering Worf to kill Chancellor Gowron; etc.

 I would like you to watch the episode or the Enterprise episode where they cloned Tucker and forced his clone to his death to save Tucker, another close friend of a commanding officer.
I am not going to do that. I do not care enough about this debate to take two hours out of my life for the sake of a tangent to a larger TrekBBS debate (a tangent ["If you think Janeway committed murder, then Sisko/Archer must be, too!"] with which I do not necessarily disagree). I am content to assert that I do not hate Janeway or Mulgrew, but that I disagree with and condemn the character's decision for the reasons I have outlined.
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 May 18 2013, 10:26 AM #836 Gov Kodos Admiral     Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix Souls don't exist, which is all your arguing for. Tuvix is just an amalgamation of two officers, brain included. They aren't dead, they are just the thing with one head. The brain is just an organ like any other. Not going to waste time watching the show, yet you keep coming back to post your opinions vainly trying to masquerade as facts. __________________ We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched Last edited by Gov Kodos; May 18 2013 at 10:39 AM.
May 18 2013, 10:36 AM   #837
Sci

Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

 Gov Kodos wrote: Souls don't exist, which is all your arguing for. Tuvix is just an amalgamation of two officers, brain included. They aren't dead, they are just the thing with one head. The brain is just an organ like any other. Not going to waste time watching the show, yet you keep coming back to post your opinions vainly trying to mascaraed as facts.
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 May 18 2013, 10:39 AM #838 Gov Kodos Admiral     Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix Tanks. __________________ We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
May 18 2013, 10:39 AM   #839
teacake

Location: Nyotaimori
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote:
 Gov Kodos wrote: Souls don't exist, which is all your arguing for. Tuvix is just an amalgamation of two officers, brain included. They aren't dead, they are just the thing with one head. The brain is just an organ like any other. Not going to waste time watching the show, yet you keep coming back to post your opinions vainly trying to mascaraed as facts.
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Janeway does Melbourne

May 18 2013, 10:41 AM   #840
Gov Kodos

Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote:
Sci wrote:
 Gov Kodos wrote: Souls don't exist, which is all your arguing for. Tuvix is just an amalgamation of two officers, brain included. They aren't dead, they are just the thing with one head. The brain is just an organ like any other. Not going to waste time watching the show, yet you keep coming back to post your opinions vainly trying to mascaraed as facts.
With sequins and tassels done to old Barbara Streisand songs?
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