RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,584
Posts: 5,515,254
Members: 25,156
Currently online: 518
Newest member: jerrlaro

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 16 2013, 11:40 AM   #16
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was no unaltered timeline. The events of ST:FC were part of history all along. A predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. And thus, Enterprise is not an alternate timeline.
I tend towards this idea.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 12:10 PM   #17
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was no unaltered timeline. The events of ST:FC were part of history all along. A predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. And thus, Enterprise is not an alternate timeline.
This. Simple works best
And it is impossible to prove otherwise.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 01:52 PM   #18
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

According to the Temporal Integrity Commision on the 29t century, Star Trek: First Contact is actually a "pogo paradox"...

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.

SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.


So in-universe, First Contact and by extension Enterprise always happened the way we saw.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 02:09 PM   #19
M.A.C.O.
Fleet Captain
 
M.A.C.O.'s Avatar
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

King Daniel wrote: View Post
According to the Temporal Integrity Commision on the 29t century, Star Trek: First Contact is actually a "pogo paradox"...

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.

SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.


So in-universe, First Contact and by extension Enterprise always happened the way we saw.
I addressed this point already. Basically the VOY writers goofed in attempt to be meta. The episode Relativity is full of contradictions to begin with, but as regards to the pogo paradox ask yourself this.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

1. How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? If Earth was assimilated in 2063 through 2373 then how does any record of that remain in the revived timeline where the Borg were defeated by the ENT-E?

2. Same question, How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? It can't be a predestination/pogo paradox that the Borg would both succeed in their goals (assimilating Earth 2063-2373) and fail at them in the same span of time 2063-2373.

3. Since the Borg never sent the message to the Delta Quad, thanks to Picard and Worf blowing up the disk. The DQ Borg had no knowledge there were Borg on Earth.
Given that Relativity was written way before Regeneration and ENT the series was ever conceived. If we take Seven of Nine's statement that she knew the Borg succeeded, and failed at assimilating earth. Then it becomes all the more problematic. Seven can't have knowledge of events that the Borg Collective in the Delta Quad never heard about, or knowledge that the Borg succeeded in conquering Earth from 2063-2373.


I've thought about this a lot. All the visible evidence points to an altered/parallel timeline created by the Borg's incursion. My logic is flawless. Come at me bros!
M.A.C.O. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 04:30 PM   #20
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

^But "Regeneration" perfectly fixes that issue. Seven knew because the surviving drones sent the message, which alerted the Borg to us in the first place.

All she says in "Year of Hell" is that, "The Borg were present during those events" when Harry and B'Elanna are discussing Cochrane's warp ship.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 06:11 PM   #21
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I've always believed that there was some minor alteration of the timeline flowing out of the events in FC. For instance if the NX-01 originally had another name, say Dauntless, that would explain it being absent from the "Enterprise" display in TMP.

Re; "Trials and Tribbleations", I've always wondered if the absence of those two guys from the line-up might have altered their career paths at all from not having that black mark on their records.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 11:38 PM   #22
Mysterion
Rear Admiral
 
Mysterion's Avatar
 
Location: SB-31, Daran V
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I do not agree that there is an alternate timeline in which ENT takes place. ENT is in the same timeline as the rest of TOS, TNG, DSN, and VOY.
__________________
USS Galileo Galilei, NCC-8888
Prima Inter Pares
Mysterion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 04:54 AM   #23
T'Pol's Love Slave
Captain
 
T'Pol's Love Slave's Avatar
 
Location: T'Pol's Quarters, NX-01
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Didn't "Regeneration" solidify the fact that it was time loop? The message sent by the Borg in that episode leads to every instance of The Borg in TNG, which leads to "First Contact", which leads back to "Regeneration."
T'Pol's Love Slave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 05:08 AM   #24
M.A.C.O.
Fleet Captain
 
M.A.C.O.'s Avatar
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

The more you look at the evidence the more plausible it becomes that FC created an alternate timeline. Similar to the original but subtle differences do to pollution of the timestream by the Borg and ENT-E crew.

I just rewatched the TNG episode First Contact where Picard says the Federation's first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. However in the ENT episode 'Broken Bow' we saw first contact with the Klingons and there was no open hostilities that caused a war. Even up to season 4 of ENT, the Klingons and Earth had a uneasy but mutual respect for one another.

What changed? Why does the history Picard state happened (First Contact 1991) contradict what was shown in ENT in 2001? The Temporal Cold War is your answer. Future Guy a being from the 28th century gave the Suliban technology and directives to help him change/rewrite history in his favor. Just like the Sphere Builders used the Xindi to change what would happen in the 26th century in their war against the Federation and the Enterprise J. Using time travel alters the past and creates alternate or parallel timelines. A new series of events that would never have occured if time travel had not been employed. Had the Suliban (who were following Future Guy's orders) never shot the Klingon Klaang down in Broken Bow, Oklahoma. First Contact between Earth and the Klingons would have been different and likely more hostile.

It's because of Future Guy, and the Sphere Builders meddling in the past that Archer and his crew became apart of events to make sure history played out like it should have unaltered. Had Future Guy the Sphere builders and the Na'kuhl never attempted to change history with time travel. We can assume the NX-01 crew would've had a very uneventful first couple of years as they explored.


With regards to the name Enterprise. It's likely named that because Deanna told Cochrane the name of their ship and Riker showed Cochrane what it looked like. Cochrane who worked on the NX project probably suggested the first warp 5 ship be called Enterprise after his experience with the ENT-E crew like T'Girl said.


With what we see before in TMP with Captain Decker showing Ilia all the ships named Enterprise but we don't see the NX-01. In STID Admiral Marcus has a model of the NX-01, but Picard has no such model on the ENT-D or E. In "Trials and Tribble-ations, the Temporal Star Fleet guys refer to Kirk's Enterprise as the "first enterprise". The Terrestial year for Trials and Tribblations is 2373, with the stardate being 4523.7. FC the movie the terrestial year is 2373 but the stardate is 50893.5. In Star Trek Nemesis we see one of the ships the ENT-E was supposed to rendezvous with is named USS Archer, after Capt Archer. I'm not saying Jonathan Archer and his crew did not exist in the original timeline. I'm saying that had the effects of the Borg, Future Guy, Na' Kuhl and the Sphere Builders not polluted the timestream by trying to rewrite it in their favor. Archer and the crew of the NX-01 probably led an uneventful tour through space. They certainly wouldn't be getting visits from Daniels in the 29th century about how important their mission was every couple of months.


The evidence is almost conclusive that ENT occurs in an altered timeline different from the original. I try to detail things out as simply as i can. When dealing with time travel and it's effects it can get very confusing. But i've given episodes and movies where things occurred and evidence can be gathered.
M.A.C.O. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 10:28 AM   #25
Oso Blanco
Commodore
 
Oso Blanco's Avatar
 
Location: Berlin, Germany
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Brannon Braga himself at the time said that Enterprise happens in an alternate timeline, created by the events in First Contact. And that works fine for me. I'd even go so far that nuTrek is the continuation of the NX-01 timeline, which would explain a lot of the differences that were there even before Nero screwed up the timeline. The question is, which timeline were Nero and Spock Prime from? Did Romulus really blew up in "our" timeline or did it happen in the alternate Enterprise timeline?
__________________
Time is the fire in which we burn
Oso Blanco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 11:03 AM   #26
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

^Have you got a link to that quote? I've heard it a few times, but never from the source.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 11:33 AM   #27
MickJo1701
Commander
 
MickJo1701's Avatar
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Mysterion wrote: View Post
I do not agree that there is an alternate timeline in which ENT takes place. ENT is in the same timeline as the rest of TOS, TNG, DSN, and VOY.
Agreed, I really have no issues whatsoever with the retcon of bringing an earlier Enterprise into the timeline or its design lineage.
MickJo1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 02:53 PM   #28
Oso Blanco
Commodore
 
Oso Blanco's Avatar
 
Location: Berlin, Germany
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

King Daniel wrote: View Post
^Have you got a link to that quote? I've heard it a few times, but never from the source.
That was about ten years ago, I don't remember where it had originally been reported ... but people used to discuss it quite a bit in this forum.
__________________
Time is the fire in which we burn
Oso Blanco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18 2013, 02:13 AM   #29
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I hate to be 'That guy', but maybe you're overthinking this a bit?

Star Trek didn't adopt the 'Going back in time creates an alternate timeline' theory until the Abrams movies, until then going back in time and changing things always deleted the original timeline. Any inconsistency is due to episodes being written by different writers with different intentions.

Trying to make the ST timeline tidy is a fool's errand.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18 2013, 02:17 AM   #30
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: First Contact alternate timeline

It makes you go insane like Braxton.

Though I'm still of the opinion that the NuTrek universe was an alternate timeline long before Nero arrived in it. Too much is different even before.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.