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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 15 2013, 03:57 PM   #16
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Doomsday wrote: View Post
The last thing that bugs me, is Pircards whining at the end and Q bailing them out, literally, a Deux ex Machina ending. I get it, that was the point of the episode and Q's actions, to show we are not ready.

But unfortunately, it made Picard seem inadequate, and impotent. If I had been a bridge crew person, and seen that seen, my reaction would have been to lose all respect for Picard as a leader. Maybe it would have been better for Picard to make that admission in the privacy of his ready room, rather than in front of all the bridge crew, whose very lives depend on his leadership?
You see, I had the exact opposite reaction to that scene. I didn't think Picard came off as whiny at all. When you look at Picard's behavior from the last season when he dealt with Q, he really needed a, as Picard said at the end, "a kick in our complacency". As for Picard looking weak to the crew, well, what was the alternative? The Borg were about to assimilate the Enterprise so it asking Q to join Picard in his ready room would have been silly. I think for the crew to see Picard admit to Q's points and ask for help shows that Picard is willing to do whatever it takes to keep his ship safe. Even when he asks for help, he still comes off as strong and competent.

As for Guinan's knowledge of the Borg? Well, you can blame Maurice Hurley for that one. He probably thought giving Guinan a history with the Borg would have been cool, but his execution was significantly lacking. Melinda Snodgrass said in her commentary track for "The Measure of a Man" that Maurice HATES backstories and was quite insistent to keep things in the present.
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Old May 15 2013, 04:30 PM   #17
Doomsday
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
... As for Picard looking weak to the crew, well, what was the alternative? The Borg were about to assimilate the Enterprise so it asking Q to join Picard in his ready room would have been silly. I think for the crew to see Picard admit to Q's points and ask for help shows that Picard is willing to do whatever it takes to keep his ship safe. Even when he asks for help, he still comes off as strong and competent...
You're probably right about this, I'm sure Picard saying "Q, join me in my ready room." at that moment would have looked absurd too. I was just grasping for something better than what he did. To me, he does NOT come off as strong and competent there.

Again, I realize that was the point of the episode, so maybe I'm nitpicking. It's just something that made me feel uncomfortable while watching it, like "this is supposed to be my hero?"

Hero's can be (and should be ) flawed, in order to be believable. But we should still, at the end of the day, feel that our hero managed to save the day, at least on some level, even if at great cost.

I don't claim to know the answer here, I just felt this ending was inadequate.
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Old May 15 2013, 07:02 PM   #18
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

He did save the day - by showing humility. I agree that this episode had its flaws, but in my eyes the resolution was never one.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:22 PM   #19
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

It's funny to see just how much the Borg have changed through the various series and movie.

In this episode, the Borg are basically bees. Technology is their pollen. Stay out of their way, and they will stay out of yours. They will only attack if you attack first. The borg reproduced by themselves, and had no use of humans.

It's odd seeing Guinan act so nonchalant about the Cube. She didn't seem to have any sense of urgency or express any fear. Maybe that's just not her style. They did destroy her world and scatter her people, after all. And now she's on a highly advanced spaceship, a ship with a giant bullseye on it for the Borg.

Fast forward to First Contact/Voyager, and the Borg assimilate people left and right, and yet they will ignore you unless you post a threat. Bad Braga, bad!
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Old May 16 2013, 04:23 PM   #20
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Fast forward to First Contact/Voyager, and the Borg assimilate people left and right, and yet they will ignore you unless you post a threat. Bad Braga, bad!
What really kills me about that whole "ignore us as long as we're not a threat" schtick is that in "Q Who", it was an assumption, not a fact.

Riker: They either don't see us or they don't see us as a threat.
But when Data scans an alcove, he brings up a much more plausible explanation.

Data: The ship appears to be regenerating. Perhaps this explains why they have not taken notice of our presence. Their collective effort is being directed into repairing this vessel.
Now that would make sense since the Cube took some pretty significant damage from the Enterprise's phasers. But by the time we get to "The Best of Both Worlds", the "Don't see us as a threat" gets played to it's absolute, and the Borg suffered as a result.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:07 AM   #21
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

And despite all the talk in this episode of the Borg's ability to "analyze and adapt," future episodes depict the Borg failing to analyze or adapt, making the same mistakes over and over again. Continuing to allow Starfleet officers to walk among them unmolested because they're "not seen as a threat" is but one example.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:48 AM   #22
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Were it not for First Contact establishing the idea that there was always a Borg queen, the fact that we suddenly see a queen after BOBW would have been a neat "adaptation".

After all, the Borg were defeated in BOBW because their one unified mind was tricked and reprogrammed. What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?

I find it hard to believe the queen was tricked into regenerating along with all the drones. Oh yeah, and then suggesting she used some interdimensional space-wedgie to get out or that she exists on a higher plane, come on. (Probably Braga's idea )

Later on in Voyager, they come across a Human who was a liberated Borg. She said she was captured at Wolf 359. Um, what?
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Old May 17 2013, 08:57 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Umm, what what? The Borg assimilate people and starships. After a victorious battle, no doubt the assimilated starships were put to good use as kernels for future Cubes, and the assimilated people were utilized as their crews.

I find it hard to believe the queen was tricked into regenerating along with all the drones.
Then again, when Her Drones went asleep under foreign command, that would be a perfect time to scuttle and run.

As for "astral plane", there's every indication that the Queen is a software entity first and foremost. She just has access to bodies - a cloned supply of those, as we see alternating Krige-Thompson-Krige-Thompson bodies...

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Old May 17 2013, 11:20 AM   #24
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

jimbotron wrote: View Post
What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?
"Q Who" actually had this discussion.

TROI: We're not dealing with an individual mind. They don't have a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
PICARD: That would have definite advantages.
TROI: Yes, A single leader can make mistakes. It's far less likely in the combined whole.
And guess what happened when they introduced the Borg Queen in Star Trek? She made mistakes! She actually trusted Data, she blew up several of her own Borg ships just to destroy one or two free minded drones, and she blew up herself despite being in a BORG WARSHIP in an attempt to prevent Janeway from escaping.

I'll say this now. The Borg Queen WAS A MISTAKE. It was a beautifully acted and well designed character, but it did more harm than good. The moment you give a formally non-single entity force an individual leader who controls everything, the less intimidating they become because you now have someone you can defeat. You think the Thing from John Carpenter's "The Thing" would have been as effective if there was a leader thing who gloated at our heroes and when killed, everything was fine? the Borg should have remained "The Thing" of Star Trek.

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Old May 17 2013, 11:47 AM   #25
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

The Borg as written in the novel Vendetta (post-BOBW, sans Queen) were certainly scarier.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:20 PM   #26
Marsden
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
jimbotron wrote: View Post
What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?
"Q Who" actually had this discussion.

TROI: We're not dealing with an individual mind. They don't have a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
PICARD: That would have definite advantages.
TROI: Yes, A single leader can make mistakes. It's far less likely in the combined whole.
And guess what happened when they introduced the Borg Queen in Star Trek? She made mistakes! She actually trusted Data, she blew up several of her own Borg ships just to destroy one or two free minded drones, and she blew up herself despite being in a BORG WARSHIP in an attempt to prevent Janeway from escaping.

I'll say this now. The Borg Queen WAS A MISTAKE. It was a beautifully acted and well designed character, but it did more harm than good. The moment you give a formally non-single entity force an individual leader who controls everything, the less intimidating they become because you now have someone you can defeat. You think the Thing from John Carpenter's "The Thing" would have been as effective if there was a leader thing who gloated at our heroes and when killed, everything was fine? the Borg should have remained "The Thing" of Star Trek.
That's a great point, the limitless unity of them is one of the scariest aspects of them and the queen really hurts it.

The notion that killing any one or even a bunch of the individual borg really doesn't matter because they can just make more. Also, does the individual borg actually die? They've established in general science fiction and Star Trek in particular that the mind of an individual can be "downloaded" into another body, the borg conscience may just be in storage until another body is found or just exist as extra knowlege in the matrix (no not that Matrix!), therefore making them nigh immortal. That is scary. Like a disease, wipe out billions but the remaining few germs can kill you, the borg can't be stopped.

Then they get a Queen and kill her and bang they're dead.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:09 PM   #27
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

I categorize the Borg three ways:

There are the Q Who/BOBW Borg. Unstoppable and intimidating. Not unlike a zombie horde. It doesn't matter how many bullets you have, they will get you.

There are the I, Borg/Descent Borg - humanized and hamstrung.

Then there are the First Contact/Voyager Borg. Stripped of all their mystique, they become just another Trek villain like the Klingons or Romulans.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:34 PM   #28
Silvercrest
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
. Gene Roddenberry decided that the best way to create a worthy adversary for the TNG crew was to take all the elements he didn't like about humanity such as greed, imperialistic attitudes, unrefined behaviors, uncaring morals and sexist views (.....starting to sound like Gene actually) and dial it up to 11. The end result was the Ferengi, a race so ridiculous that their premier episode was hated by everyone involved. ... Something else had to be done.
Why anyone would think that a worthy adversary would be characterized as "someone you really don't like" is beyond me.

But it seems to me that when they created a truly worthy adversary in the Borg, they did so by going the opposite route. They took all the aspects of Roddenberry's "evolved humanity", maybe unintentionally, and dialed that up to 11. Or maybe 99.

Anyway: lack of interpersonal conflict, working toward perfection for its own sake, the attitude that you've evolved beyond your own flaws, and the arrogance that comes with all that. That's the Borg in a nutshell.

What does everyone think?
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Old May 18 2013, 06:02 AM   #29
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
. Gene Roddenberry decided that the best way to create a worthy adversary for the TNG crew was to take all the elements he didn't like about humanity such as greed, imperialistic attitudes, unrefined behaviors, uncaring morals and sexist views (.....starting to sound like Gene actually) and dial it up to 11. The end result was the Ferengi, a race so ridiculous that their premier episode was hated by everyone involved. ... Something else had to be done.
Why anyone would think that a worthy adversary would be characterized as "someone you really don't like" is beyond me.
Fox News Channel gets very good ratings with their depiction of a universe in which Muslims, secularists, immigrants and homosexuals are coming to destroy us all.
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Old May 18 2013, 08:02 AM   #30
Silvercrest
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

Fair enough! But those are just adversaries, not worthy ones.
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