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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.30%
A 161 21.58%
A- 101 13.54%
B+ 82 10.99%
B 58 7.77%
B- 27 3.62%
C+ 40 5.36%
C 38 5.09%
C- 25 3.35%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.83%
Voters: 746. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 17 2013, 12:13 AM   #2431
CoveTom
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
I hate when people try to tap dance to explain why something's okay in something they like but it's a crime against humanity if it's in something they don't like (or refuse to see).
They were frozen after they were clinically dead, but before enough time had passed for resuscitation to be possible. That's the whole point of freezing someone at the point of, or shortly after, clinical death -- we could revive them right now, but there wouldn't be any point, because we can't fix what's wrong with them. So we'll freeze them in the hopes they can be revived when a cure is available.

And, personally, I would argue that if you can be resuscitated, you were never really dead to begin with. But that's a whole other debate.

The point is that Crusher's treatment required very specific circumstances planned for in advance. She couldn't just bring people back from the dead at will, or we would have seen a lot less bodies throughout TNG's run.

That's the problem with using Khan's blood. Unless we establish some sort of limit on its abilities, it opens the door to regenerating anyone who has died. The Genesis Planet would have opened the same door, except that it blew up, conveniently skirting the issue.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:17 AM   #2432
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I would really like the Enterprise to go up against something it's a match for. So far it's been dicked by the Nerada and now the Vengeance.

At least against the Reliant they were equally matched.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:17 AM   #2433
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Phily B wrote: View Post
Nit 3: That is one ugly impulse deck they put on the Enterprise at the end of the film.
Didn't see this, will have to look out for it next time.
I snapped a picture of it from the Star Trek special that was on History last night:



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Old May 17 2013, 12:21 AM   #2434
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

hamudm wrote: View Post
OK, now I think that I'M the one trapped in an alternate universe! What kind of topsy turvy world has STID>ST:TUC????
Well, you know, people have different tastes. Personally, I like TUC a lot, it might be my favourite TOS movie, but I also think that the new Star Trek movies are better.


hamudm wrote: View Post
EDIT: People are creaming their pants over this movie for the same reasons that people heaved dung at Nemesis... this whole thing really has me baffled. I'm questioning my own sanity right now... am I even awake?
Not a fan of crude sexual metaphors. I don't think I follow you. What are the reasons that people dislike Nemesis for but like this movie for? The two don't have that much in common.


J. Allen wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
Apparently I'm not qualified to comment on it if I don't see it.
That makes sense.

Even though from what I've read, I don't like the story. It's the story that counts. All the acting and FX in the world cannot save the story for me. And no money involved, cause I'm borrowing it.
Stories don't exist in a vacuum. A story treatment alone doesn't make allowances for execution, direction, production value, acting sequences, or anything else. It's like saying that you don't like sex, and will never like sex because the description doesn't seem appealing, even though you've never had it.
Yup. I shied away from watching Doctor Who for a while because its premise sounded pretty ridiculous to me (it still does). It turned out to be fantastic and became one of my favourite shows. A film is more than just its story.


Lord Garth, FOI wrote: View Post
I have a cryo tube in my pants
Ok... You should probably have that checked out.

As for the Star Trek into Decadence moniker - I really don't get it. Maybe decadence means something else nowadays but if not I don't see it in the movie. It's about family, loyalty and ideals. Our heroes are people with a conscience and a sense of duty who are members of an organisation founded on high-minded ideals. That's not decadent at all.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:22 AM   #2435
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Each and every one of these characters has a legitimate motivation for revenge--Khan for being used by Starfleet, Kirk for the murder of Admiral Pike, Khan for Kirk betraying him... No character steps back from those emotions to show how we should respond...
But Kirk did step back and examine what he was about to do and the morality of such after seeing his officers react negatively to the mission. Much like Picard stepped back from using the virus on the Borg after people like Guinan and Geordi convinced him it was wrong.

Khan was still a terrorist who had a hand in murdering people and Kirk arrived at the correct way to handle the situation.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:25 AM   #2436
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Each and every one of these characters has a legitimate motivation for revenge--Khan for being used by Starfleet, Kirk for the murder of Admiral Pike, Khan for Kirk betraying him... No character steps back from those emotions to show how we should respond...
But Kirk did step back and examine what he was about to do and the morality of such after seeing his officers react negatively to the mission. Much like Picard stepped back from using the virus on the Borg after people like Guinan and Geordi convinced him it was wrong.

Khan was still a terrorist who had a hand in murdering people and Kirk arrived at the correct way to handle the situation.
Because he was facing death. He still went on the mission. Admiral Marcus is right about what he did. There are no consequences, again, for this Kirk.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:28 AM   #2437
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
There are no consequences, again, for this Kirk.
What consequences should he have faced? He lost a "father" figure and realized that command was about more than sitting in the "chair". Then he "died" saving his ship. And while bringing him back represents a cheat of sorts it doesn't cheapen the sacrifice the character was willing to make.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:31 AM   #2438
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
There are no consequences, again, for this Kirk.
What consequences should he have faced? He lost a "father" figure and realized that command was about more than sitting in the "chair". Then he "died" saving his ship. And while bringing him back represents a cheat of sorts it doesn't cheapen the sacrifice the character was willing to make.
They wouldn't be in this situation if he hadn't tried to seek revenge. He started a war with the Klingons and gets a 5-year mission for it. That's not much in the way of a consequence.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:33 AM   #2439
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
There are no consequences, again, for this Kirk.
What consequences should he have faced? He lost a "father" figure and realized that command was about more than sitting in the "chair". Then he "died" saving his ship. And while bringing him back represents a cheat of sorts it doesn't cheapen the sacrifice the character was willing to make.
They wouldn't be in this situation if he hadn't tried to seek revenge. He started a war with the Klingons and gets a 5-year mission for it. That's not much in the way of a consequence.
What war? I doubt they send their most advanced ship on a five-year mission of exploration if they were in the middle of fighting a war...
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Old May 17 2013, 12:39 AM   #2440
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Saw the midnight premiere last night. I really enjoyed it although I think it could have focused more on the characters and themes from TOS. I did enjoy it though.

I thought Zachary Quinto played a decent Spock for what it was...however due to my obsessiveness over the previous season of American Horror Story , I couldn't get Oliver Thredson out of my mind every time I got a good look at him. That would only make sense to AHS: Asylum watchers, but yeah.

Overall I thought it was a good watch, but I think I prefer the style of the tv shows better.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:41 AM   #2441
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
-Nods: I thought it was cringe worthy when they started taking lines directly from TWOK. It just didn't feel right because I didn't think the emotional resonance was there. That's not to say that Kirk's death scene wasn't well played, particularly by Quinto. But his yelling Khan's name just didn't work for me. It felt corny in a way, and maybe it was corny in TWOK but it also felt real.

-I didn't care for the Christine Chapel reference though. That should have been Yeoman Rand.

-Chekov: As Chief Engineer? Seriously? There was no one in Engineering that could've passably took over for Scotty? It seemed like a way to just give him something to do.

-Uhura: For the most part I didn't have a problem with her. I thought they gave her a little more to do and she even got into the action-not enough-on Kronos. My gripe is at the end when she beams down while Khan and Spock are fighting. For one, why didn't they just send security guards? Two, if Uhura insisted on going down there, why not send Hendorff to back her up?

-Enterprise under water. A cool visual but it made no sense. Why couldn't they just beam the away team to and from the ship up in space?
I was laughing all through the homage. If it wasn't meant to be funny then I apologise to all those cinema-goers who haven't seen the original.

I too wasn't happy about Chris Chapel being booted off the ship given that Majel Barrett had died since making the last movie I was hoping that Chapel would have been given a part as an homage to the grand old dame of Trek. But bite you tongue! How dare you write off my beloved Janice!

Yeoman Rand has featured as semi-regular support in the comics, mostly in a security capacity so I was disappointed to see Boma on the Qo'Nos mission instead of her. It seems like yet another pointless miss when it comes to equalising the sexes a bit more and paying homage to some of the cool women of Trek.

On the other hand, Chris Chapel has been absent from the comics. I'd assumed that they were keeping her under wraps until the actress playing her was cast so the sidelining was a bit of a shock. I'm hoping that they are planning to reintroduce her in a Nuversion of What Are Little Girls Made of? I'm worried they'll use her as a one-shot but I'm keeping fingers crossed. They wrote Dr Dehner out of her episode but left in all the male characters and they still haven't featured or mentioned T'Pau despite featuring the surviving vulcans so the lack of respect to the female characters has been grating on me for a while now.

The Chekov and Uhura issue comes down to them wanting to use regular characters even if it makes no sense. I'm not a fan. They seem to be doing an excellent job with Sulu in both movies and the comics but less so with the others. Uhura suffered in the first movie when she was bumped from the Romulan mission despite being the best qualified so that the boys could play together and bond. I get the impression that these writers don't intend to change this style of storytelling.

It's not just about making use of your expensive actors though. They do seem to do the same thing in the comics. Kirk asks if the psychologist Dr Dehner (in fact she was a psychiatrist but maybe either Kirk or the writers don't understand the difference) would have any insight into Gary Mitchell's condition. When he's told that she elected not to join teh crew, does Kirk suggest that her replacement should venture forth instead? Perhaps the delectable Helen Noel might like to take a stab?

Nope apparently there aren't enough psychologists or phychiatrists to go round. Or enough engineers. Or enough physicists (since Spock seems to think that a research vessel needs only one - and that's probably why he nixed the geologist and vulcanologist too - what a glory hog). Still, with so few scientists you would think they'd have room for a few more engineers...
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Old May 17 2013, 12:46 AM   #2442
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think you take the whole 'sexual equality' thing of a show that was born in the sixties a little too seriously. It's Star Trek, it is what it is. There's lots of other shows that do far better on the 'sexual equality' count, you'd likely be happier watching those.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:50 AM   #2443
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
-Nods: I thought it was cringe worthy when they started taking lines directly from TWOK. It just didn't feel right because I didn't think the emotional resonance was there. That's not to say that Kirk's death scene wasn't well played, particularly by Quinto. But his yelling Khan's name just didn't work for me. It felt corny in a way, and maybe it was corny in TWOK but it also felt real.
Saw the original, didn't laugh at this one.

As for corny, well, sometimes you just need to let your communicator shake a little more, as your face morphs into apoplectic rage (even though you know that your ship will be picking up you in two hours), then have the scream of Khan's name echo into space several times.

In this case, I think Quinto did a superior job of exhibiting rage.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:58 AM   #2444
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Spock is willing to push away emotions but can't do it when it counts. Nyota never says "Stop Spock. It's wrong." She says "Stop Spock, we need him."

Scotty is the only redeeming figure in the whole movie. He is capable at his job, tries his hardest to do what is right, and has training to handle these situations. And he gets busted off the Enterprise for it.
Yeah, the moral compass of most of Starfleet is a bit off. I think too much of the USA's 'revenge is good' attitude has tended to creep into this franchise, eclipsing Roddenberry's more optimistic tone. I do accept that Roddenberry's desire to maintain harmony among Starfleet was a straitjacket that the franchise needed to take off but I would at the very least like my main characters to show some of that optimism. I applauded Pike's rant and Kirk does pedal back from the appalling execution scene from the last movie.

I actually think that you mean to applaud both Sulu and Keenser. To date Sulu has demonstrated the most moral fibre out of all the characters. I've really warmed to Cho's unassuming portrayal much like TOS Uhura's quiet efficiency.

Keenser, despite being a senior officer, believe it or not (according to the comics he's a lieutenant and is apparently the assistant chief engineer I assume since Kirk does not promote the assistant to be chief), he tkes a lot of abuse and is treated like s skivvy by Scotty in what seems to be a terrible case of workplace bullying and 'disability' discrimination. Plus Scotty does have a history of behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals. He was good in the movie but give more credit to those that really deserve it!
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Old May 17 2013, 01:07 AM   #2445
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

borgmatrix wrote: View Post
Regarding when Marcus lost control of Khan, I'm almost positive it was before the movie started. Khan was already running rogue. I doubt the attack on the council/meeting was part of any plan on Marcus' part.

On Enterprise, Khan said he tried to get his people out by placing them in the torpedoes, was found out, and had to escape. His actions having been discovered, he was under the impression his people were then all killed. So he described his subsequent actions (bombing, attack on meeting) as him responding in kind for what was done to him.
See that's what I thought, but J. and some other people (?) have said that the blowing up of the "archive" was ordered by Marcus. So if Marcus orders the archive blown up and Khan does it what happens to make him turn within hours of that event and try and kill Marcus? Does he contact Marcus after the archive is blown up and Marcus says, "No you can't have your people, fuck off"? Or has he already turned and decided that blowing up the archive suited him anyway? Or is the blowing up of the archive all his own doing and Marcus did not order it?

There's no way the blowing up of the Starfleet meeting was ordered by Marcus. This wasn't a sniper assassination that Marcus could feel safe from, missiles were blown into the room.

I also want to know why they put 72 torpedoes on the Enterprise to kill one person. Yes Marcus was hoping a war would start but even 10 would do the trick. We know Khan has put all his people in the torpedoes so they are super important to him but wouldn't Marcus, who doesn't know this, want to keep some of his super weapons aside in case this fails and he needs them to get some other pawn to start a war?
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