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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.35%
A 161 21.64%
A- 100 13.44%
B+ 82 11.02%
B 58 7.80%
B- 27 3.63%
C+ 40 5.38%
C 38 5.11%
C- 24 3.23%
D+ 11 1.48%
D 13 1.75%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.84%
Voters: 744. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 16 2013, 11:20 PM   #2416
hamudm
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But they were DEAD. If they can cure death in TNG without everyone's panties getting in a bunch then they should be able to cure death in a Trek movie without everyone's panties getting in a bunch.
They most likely could have been resuscitated in their time. But what would be the point then if technology of their time could not repair the damage.
They were dead...

The Neutral Zone wrote:
CRUSHER: Right now, they are all sleeping. Each of them needed minor medical attention. Minor now, but then their conditions were obviously terminal. One had a heart problem, another had an advanced case of emphysema with extensive liver damage. You know the most surprising thing of all, is that each of them had been frozen after they died.
I hate when people try to tap dance to explain why something's okay in something they like but it's a crime against humanity if it's in something they don't like (or refuse to see).
Dude, give it a rest already. We can resuscitate clinically dead people NOW.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:22 PM   #2417
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I hate when people try to tap dance to explain why something's okay in something they like but it's a crime against humanity if it's in something they don't like (or refuse to see).
Whatever dude. I said nothing about Khans blood. The whole point of Cryonics is to slow decay of the body after death in hopes you can cure the disease or repair the damage in the future.
Which is what happened when McCoy placed Kirk in a cryo-tube in order to slow the decay of brain functions.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:24 PM   #2418
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

hamudm wrote: View Post
Dude, give it a rest already. We can resuscitate clinically dead people NOW.
You were the one who pointed out that reviving Kirk was a flaw...

hamudm wrote:
Oh yeah, we managed to cure death... I'm surprised they weren't throwing Khan a frikin parade at the end!
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Old May 16 2013, 11:24 PM   #2419
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

hamudm wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post

They most likely could have been resuscitated in their time. But what would be the point then if technology of their time could not repair the damage.
They were dead...

The Neutral Zone wrote:
CRUSHER: Right now, they are all sleeping. Each of them needed minor medical attention. Minor now, but then their conditions were obviously terminal. One had a heart problem, another had an advanced case of emphysema with extensive liver damage. You know the most surprising thing of all, is that each of them had been frozen after they died.
I hate when people try to tap dance to explain why something's okay in something they like but it's a crime against humanity if it's in something they don't like (or refuse to see).
Dude, give it a rest already. We can resuscitate clinically dead people NOW.
Wow.

Are you aware that dying of advanced emphysema and liver damage is more biologically and medically complex than the kind of "clinical death" that we resuscitate people from?
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Old May 16 2013, 11:26 PM   #2420
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I just saw it. I think for a big popcorn summer blockbuster film there's a lot going for it. As as Trek film, I thought it was disappointing.

Positives:
-Big action: There's a lot of action in this film and most of it is well done.
-Big scope: Abrams films are the only Trek films that really feel like movies in terms of production values and epic feel. Perhaps Star Trek the Motion Picture also falls into that category, but I can never sit through that film.
-Cast: I don't think anyone lost a step since Trek 2009. And the additions gave solid performances even if I didn't always like the lines they were given.
-Balls: It took balls to do a mash up of Space Seed and Wrath of Khan. Ever since TWOK almost every Trek film has tried to make a Khan clone the main bad guy. STID just says screw that and brings Khan back. Maybe now they will stop trying to redo TWOK.
-Major deaths: I wasn't expecting Pike to die and was surprised that they reversed the sacrifice scene with Kirk. For a few minutes I was pondering if they were going to carry on the franchise with Spock before trying to figure out what kind of hackneyed way they could bring Kirk back. I had forgotten about the tribble until right before they brought it back up.
-Kirk and Harrison first coming face to face: I like how Khan let Kirk punch himself out and it didn't faze him in the slightest. The only thing missing was him saying, "I have five times your strength."
-Nods: I liked seeing Sulu sit in the captain's chair, the call back to the Countdown into Darkness comic, Section 31
-Enterprise crew members: I liked the diversity of the crew and also many of the background actors.
-Klingons: I had real trepidations after seeing that first image of the Klingons. But up close I thought the guy looked Klingon enough for me.

Negatives:
-Khan: The film lost me as soon as Cumberbatch revealed himself. I wish they hadn't gone there and perhaps had just made Harrison one of the augments and not Khan. Doing that would have done nothing to change his goals. Plus the way the film ended would still leave Khan as a future possibility. Despite Cumberbatch's solid enough job, he doesn't measure up to Ricardo Montalban (sp). I thought it was solid in the sense that nuKhan looked menacing (at times overly so) and was lethal, but he lacked original Khan's charisma. NuKhan was too much cold fury.
Cumberbatch and Pine just didn't have the weight of years that Shatner and Montalban. Sure it was personal because of Pike. And Khan had a personal beef with Starfleet. Maybe the writers thought it was neat to put Kirk in the vengeance seat for a bit, but ultimately the emotional tie, the shared guilt and regret that I felt in TWOK was absent in STID.
-More Khan: Why is Khan British now? Couldn't they have found an Indian actor to play him this time around? Or another person of color? I also echo what's been said before about why no one seemed to know who Khan was, or even checked the computer after he told them I was created 300 years ago.
-Khan Three Times: I thought it made no sense for Khan to say he planned to continue making weapons even after he revived his people. I wish he had been more clear about what he planned to do with those weapons so that the stakes of letting him escape or stopping him would've been clearer.
-Admiral Marcus: I understand from a movie standpoint why he's in command of the Vengeance but it makes no sense. Seems like he would've had a flunky do that just to keep his hands clean. And I think it would be hard for the head of Starfleet to just disappear for an long period of time.
-More Admiral Marcus: I don't get why Marcus needed a 300-year-old guy, despite Khan's brilliance, to come up with weapons. I could see if Marcus was making super soldiers but he seemed to just be designing weapons.
-Nods: I thought it was cringe worthy when they started taking lines directly from TWOK. It just didn't feel right because I didn't think the emotional resonance was there. That's not to say that Kirk's death scene wasn't well played, particularly by Quinto. But his yelling Khan's name just didn't work for me. It felt corny in a way, and maybe it was corny in TWOK but it also felt real.
-Carol Marcus: Why is she British? Alice Eve definitely fit the part but I didn't get the British accent. I'm not quite sure how she finagled her way onto the Enterprise so easily-I had hoped she would be working with Section 31-but I didn't mind too much because I liked seeing them start her romance with Kirk. I didn't care for the Christine Chapel reference though. That should have been Yeoman Rand.
-Chekov: As Chief Engineer? Seriously? There was no one in Engineering that could've passably took over for Scotty? It seemed like a way to just give him something to do.
-Uhura: For the most part I didn't have a problem with her. I thought they gave her a little more to do and she even got into the action-not enough-on Kronos. My gripe is at the end when she beams down while Khan and Spock are fighting. For one, why didn't they just send security guards? Two, if Uhura insisted on going down there, why not send Hendorff to back her up?
-Klingon Empire: Where the heck were the Klingon ships? Why can the Enterprise go to the Klingon homeworld in like a day? Cross the Neutral Zone without any response from the Klingons? And then fly a ship onto their homeworld? If they had said it was a far flung Klingon colony or outpost I could've bought it but I thought they were stretching it a bit to make it Kronos. The Klingon Empire as it is presented in STID doesn't seem like that much of a threat. The film is relying on the reputation prime universe Trek has built for them when they should've been establishing how badass the Klingons were in the alternate universe.
-Klingon ships: I didn't like the new ships. It felt like a cross between a Bird-of-Prey and Transformers.
-Transporter beams that can go all the way to the Klingon homeworld?
-Enterprise under water. A cool visual but it made no sense. Why couldn't they just beam the away team to and from the ship up in space?

Last edited by DarKush; May 16 2013 at 11:38 PM.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:51 PM   #2421
Lord Garth, FOI
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I have a cryo tube in my pants
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Old May 16 2013, 11:52 PM   #2422
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Saw the midnight showing last night.

Like the first one, it was a fun, enjoyable movie. They went a little overboard in the fanservice, though. Some of it was ok, like Section 31 and what I presume was Praxis (I really liked that touch). It was the parts that seemed more like direct copies (or even rip-offs) than homages or references that bugged me, particularly the radiation scene. But when Spock did his "KHAAAANNN!" I literally groaned. It was just ridiculous, and I couldn't take it the least bit seriously.

But don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it. It was a fun summer blockbuster movie. I just wish JJ and his bunch could have come up with something more original instead of rehashing an old villain, and lifting scenes straight from previous Trek.

C+
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Old May 16 2013, 11:52 PM   #2423
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post

As for seeing the film, I have enough info to know I will not like it. I'll rip it apart after I see the library's Blu-Ray copy in 6 months.
And if you do like it, you'll never admit it in a million years. You've decided it's a bad movie no matter what and won't be wrong.
If I end up liking it, I'll be man enough to admit it.
Why don't you go to a cinema complex and buy a ticket for a movie that you already approve of (obviously not Star Trek) thats on about the same time. Buy some popcorn and drinks so you're not ripping off the cinema complex and 'accidentally' go into the wrong cinema and actually see STID.

That way you can be qualified to comment and also stick it to Abrams at the same time.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:54 PM   #2424
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

And if you do like it, you'll never admit it in a million years. You've decided it's a bad movie no matter what and won't be wrong.
If I end up liking it, I'll be man enough to admit it.
Why don't you go to a cinema complex and buy a ticket for a movie that you already approve of (obviously not Star Trek) thats on about the same time. Buy some popcorn and drinks so you're not ripping off the cinema complex and 'accidentally' go into the wrong cinema and actually see STID.

That way you can be qualified to comment and also stick it to Abrams at the same time.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:57 PM   #2425
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Hey guys, just saw the movie and I thought it was fantastic. Just wanted to throw out a few things Bob Orci said over at Trek Movie since I saw everyone discussing them.

The Enterprise underwater- Basically the interference from the erupting Volcano would not allow them to transport without direct line of sight and they couldn't get close enough with shuttlecraft without risking being seen.

Khan's blood being uses instead of another cryo sleeper. Basically, Bones wasn't going to risk killing another cryo sleeper, since the unfreezing process was tricky, when there was still a chance they could get Khan. Also, he had no idea that anyone's blood other than Khan's would work since he has seen what happened with the tribble. Since Kirk was on ice time wasn't really of the essence, they had a chance to let things play out.

Also, the blood itself did not just save Kirk. It was a starting point for a serum that Bones created to reverse the radiation damage by restoring the cells. They had to make sure he wasn't still iradiated after the procedure.

Now, I would like to speculate on Khan's appearance. Since he was working for Section 31 and they value their secrecy and planning, I would assume that he was forced to undergo plastic surgery to fit in with his new cover identity. It really is the only logical conclusion I can come up with. Thanks for reading.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:04 AM   #2426
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

hamudm wrote: View Post

8. Khan Noonien Singh is Sikh... I haven't met a lot of white english Sikh men born in 1970. A problem especially considering (although yes I know Montalban is a Spaniard), the timeline hadn't yet branched when Khan was born and Khan should probably at least look SIMILAR to the one from TWOK

10. Spock is clearly the better officer... why is Kirk getting command of the Enterprise? Not once, but TWICE!? Because he goes with his "gut..." I heard someone essentially call him the G.W. Bush of the Abramsverse... seems about accurate.

12. You're ordered to abandon ship and the crew refuses to comply... Their staying behind served no useful function in restoring power to the ship.

18. Uhura's moment to shine with her skills, literally the only moment in the movie that suggested that maybe intellect would win over brawn, is shat on by a gunfight

20. Why did the Vengeance officer wait 6 minutes to shoot Scotty? All the while listening to Kirk's specific instructions on boarding the ship over the comm? Speaking of which, Kirk's body would have been pulverized into chunky salsa with that landing
8. I think they were worried that if they darkened Cumberbatch's skin or blackened his hair it would have given the game away but leaving him with blue eyes did seem to be underscoring the fact that he wasn't even remotely south asian in ethnicity. It would have been nice to something subtle alluding to his ethnicity or faith such as a ceremonial dagger. If there was, I missed it.

10. TOS Spock was the finest first officer in the fleet but he had no desire to be captain in TOS especially given the racism against aliens at the time, which also seems to be present in NuTrek given how few there are among the top starfleet brass (sexist AND racist - they really are reminiscent of 21st century Earth).

I agree that NuSpock seems to have none of that reluctance to lead, being a higher rank at an earlier date here and he has 5+ years more experience than Kirk too. It's like promoting ENSIGN Chekov, with his year of experience as a navigator, shadowing Scotty on a part-time basis, to be in charge of engineering instead of Lieutenant Mulhall who has been working in engineering for the last year. She'll probably transfer to the rim with Christine Chapel and Elizabeth Dehner if she's already hit the glass ceiling.

12. I think this shows why you shouldn't appoint an ensign as your chief engineer. You have 400 crew probably a third of whom will be engineers and technicians. You are at red alert when damage control teams must take up positions all over the ship. The ship is broken and has no warp power, impulse power OR thrusters to maintain its orbit. The damage control teams are... somewhere else? Lost in the brewery perhaps?

18. I felt that allowing Uhura on the volcano mission was ok BUT they should have also had a geophysicist or volcanologist to provide expert advice. Spock is an astrophysicist and a computer expert. Uhura is a technician. Using characters for the sake of using them is ok as long as it isn't stupid. This was one of the most annoying pits that Voyager fell into e.g. using Kim and Neelix on a geology mission instead of introducing a ship's geologist. This can lead to the stagnation of the character dynamic in a series. In a movie franchise it just looks silly and it's something that NuTrek seems willing to use a lot. I do want to see them use the characters BUT assigning Chekov to assist the new chief engineer would have made FAR more sense than making him the chief and could have led to a similar amount of dialogue.

Uhura on the Qo'Nos mission was consolation for overlooking the fact that she was best qualified to accompany Kirk on the Romulan mission in the previous movie (lets not forget that Spock just turned up and insisted that he join in - it wasn't Kirk's command decision). It was moderately appropriate but yeah, it was a shame that she wasn't allowed to be smarter and more effective. TOS Uhura was very successful at bluffing opponents.

20. This was very silly and drawn out. He didn't even raise the intruder alarm. Scotty was in a starfleet vessel with a stonking great ID beacon and he managed to get inside a secure facility without needing so much as an ID badge. In fairness he could have disengaged the beacon but a vessel with no beacon should still have been challenged - we can locate unidentified aircraft with our current level of tech after all. With such appalling levels of security for secure sites, maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise that the guard was dumb. We also have to consider that Earth security took no action to intervene to prevent a battle in near Earth orbit, tow damaged ships out to a stable orbit, or use tractor beams, force fields, or missiles to protect populated areas.

It's up there with an emergency escape pod telling its inhabitant to wait for rescue from the outpost mere kilometers from the landing site without attempting to contact said outpost (which should have been able to beam Kirk to the base). In fact, why did Spock waste a life pod at all. He'd have been better off beaming Kirk straight to the station brig and save an important resource for the upcoming battle.

No wonder they needed Khan to help them out. It's the plot of Demolition Man all over again!
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Old May 17 2013, 12:04 AM   #2427
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Saw it again in 2D. I think that'll be it for me until it's realsed on blu-ray.

- Caught the Mudd reference this time. Great nod to the Countdown to Darkness prequel comic.

- I take back what I said about the humor. It came off better on a second viewing.

- Khan's people were in pods in this movie but they weren't in "Space Seed".

- The Enterprise's design seems kind of flimsy with the warp nacelle pylons attached to the shuttle bay. Never took note of that before. Super strong 23rd century materials?

- Loved that portable hole.

BillJ wrote: View Post
That is one ugly impulse deck they put on the Enterprise at the end of the film.
Saw it the second time around. I like it.

Candlelight wrote: View Post
The ship sizes are all over the place. Enterprise is still huge. Vengeance is even bigger. And yet the port Kirk and Khan aim for is on deck 13. Which is halfway up the engineering hull. So basically the Vengeance is the size of Voyager.
Each deck is huge like the area where Scotty was. This is a pure military vessel. Gotta have big decks to hold all those weapons and equipment.

hamudm wrote: View Post
Why doesn't anyone know who Khan is? He is literally the historical equivalent of Adolf Hitler, Genghis Khan, Josef Stalin, etc... probably WORSE
As mentioned in "Space Seed", he was unknown even in his own time.

hamudm wrote: View Post
Khan Noonien Singh is Sikh... I haven't met a lot of white english Sikh men born in 1970. A problem especially considering (although yes I know Montalban is a Spaniard), the timeline hadn't yet branched when Khan was born and Khan should probably at least look SIMILAR to the one from TWOK
Plastic surgery with the new name.

hamudm wrote: View Post
It's spelled Qo'Nos!!!
"Kronos" became the english designation because the two words sound so much alike.

DarKush wrote: View Post
Carol Marcus: Why is she British?
Raised in the UK after the destruction of the Kelvin.

For a lot of these issues, it's easy to come up with your own explanations if you need to.

Last edited by Agent Richard07; May 17 2013 at 12:33 AM.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:07 AM   #2428
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I think the guy who did this image - not me, BTW, I should have made that clear - did pick one of Pine's weaker scenes here.
I thought the bar scene with Kirk and Pike was especially poignant, after they were done reminiscing about their last trip to a bar together. I didn't know Pine could act that well.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:09 AM   #2429
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
Read further back and see what triggered that entire exchange. I posted a quote I found humorous which makes fun of the film. And one of the supporters pounced.

As for seeing the film, I have enough info to know I will not like it. I'll rip it apart after I see the library's Blu-Ray copy in 6 months.
See, I don't get this. You already "know" you're going to hate the movie, and yet in six months, when the movie comes out on disc, you're going to "rip it apart." It's like all you seek to do is tear down what someone else created, and you don't even know what they've created, because you already "know" that you won't like it. I mean, it's your money to waste, but it just doesn't make any sense. How can you hate something you've never seen, and look forward to hating it once you see it?
Apparently I'm not qualified to comment on it if I don't see it. Even though from what I've read, I don't like the story. It's the story that counts. All the acting and FX in the world cannot save the story for me. And there will be no money involved, cause I'm borrowing it.
Okay, then assist the conversation until then by not participating. Any contribution you make will be informed by ignorance.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:11 AM   #2430
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

After last night's hand-wringing, I did see Star Trek: Into Darkness today. And my fears were relieved, in some respects. This is not a re-hash of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

It is a summer blockbuster. Kudos to the team that put this movie together for trying to put some semblance of a theme into the movie. Kudos for trying to take Star Trek and use it as a reflection of our attitudes towards terrorism, and what we do when we face an existential threat. I thought about my own attitudes towards Boston being on lockdown after the events that transpired around the Boston Marathon bombing. The best Trek tries to do this, and the argument about safety is some of the best parts of the movie.

It fails unless you consider it an action flick, however. Each and every one of these characters has a legitimate motivation for revenge--Khan for being used by Starfleet, Kirk for the murder of Admiral Pike, Khan for Kirk betraying him, Admiral Marcus for trying to keep the Federation safe from another Nero-style attack. Carol Marcus for seeing her father have his head crushed, Spock for having Kirk die. The movie fails in the simple art of storytelling from there. No character steps back from those emotions to show how we should respond, the appropriate response to having someone you loved murdered. No one is wise enough to lecture the crew. And that is very bad for Gene Roddenberry's vision indeed. A speech at the end, after using people was the only thing that kept them alive, does not a theme make. This movie is about exactly what NOT to do when someone wrongs you.

Carol Marcus is the only one who doesn't seek revenge. And her reaction is cold as if nothing happened. I know if I saw my father's head crushed, I would be emotional. Stepping away from the emotion, as Spock suggests on Kronos, is not the way to handle this situation. You must deal with the emotions and choose the right course of action.

Kirk's speech about how he "doesn't know what he should do" is what this character is all about. He doesn't have the training necessary to be Captain. His love for Spock is never explained, as a mind-meld transference from Prime Spock, to his sympathy over losing his mother, whatever. We are left to guess. The relationships--the loyalty, love, and comradery among the crew--never hinted at, never given a character-building scene. They just are loyal and we are to accept it.

There are no good guys in this movie, it relies on lore and sentimentality of the past to explain who we are supposed to be cheering for. They don't do anything noble. Kirk isn't concerned about anyone else in that room except the one he cared about. He's selfish.

Spock is willing to push away emotions but can't do it when it counts. Nyota never says "Stop Spock. It's wrong." She says "Stop Spock, we need him."

Scotty is the only redeeming figure in the whole movie. He is capable at his job, tries his hardest to do what is right, and has training to handle these situations. And he gets busted off the Enterprise for it.

Now, for the nit-picks:

--A pack of Klingons--sure we can take them on. One Vulcan, oh, I'm too weak and will lose.

--No need for Prime Spock at all. Happy to see Leonard Nimoy, no need to show him.

--All the business about the ships in Marcus' office. Who cares? With or without it, it wouldn't make the movie better or worse.

-- Apologies to the people who claimed the Enterprise wasn't the ship crashing into San Francisco. You can break down the images better than I can.

--Section 31 is no longer a secret? It goes away simply because an Admiral dies? Can someone say plothole?

--76 Khans are still alive.

--I had no emotional reaction to Kirk's death. Zero. A little boy was crying behind me. It was anti-climatic and it's been done before. Way before he looks at the tribble, I am muttering "Khan's blood." There wasn't enough of a battle with Khan, a real space battle, for me to feel this was the only way to save the ship and to have some emotional connection to it. Left me flat.

All in all: A for effort, D for execution. C overall. Questioning if I want to see Star Trek XIII.
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